Money, freedom, and financial literacy

Tina Hay Transcript

Sabrina Merage Naim
From Evoke Media, I'm Sabrina Merage Naim, with me is Kassia Binkowski, and this is Breaking Glass - a series of conversations with women around the world who are shattering glass ceilings and challenging social norms. They are audacious, gutsy, and their stories are echoed across borders and generations in a rallying cry that is changing the narrative for women everywhere. We're staying local today to speak with Tina Hay, who's the founder and CEO of Napkin Finance - a multimedia platform where members can learn everything about money in 30 seconds or less. It's anything from your taxes to credit, to investing, to how to save for retirement. It's super visual, very easy to take in. And we're specifically talking to her about the importance of women's financial literacy and the barriers to entry that have existed for so long for women to be more financially literate, and understand why it's so important to understand the financial landscape and how it impacts them.

Kassia Binkowski
Absolutely. I mean, Tina is helping build resources that are reaching more than 80 million people right now. And the story that we're talking about today, the story that she's sharing is not just about building financial literacy, for women, it's also about women gaining some equity, gaining some space in the financial industry at large. That's her story. That's her story as an entrepreneur, which I think is really fascinating. So we kind of get both sides of this coin today, why it matters, as well as how to engage and break down the industry at large.

Sabrina Merage Naim
And the why it matters is not always as obvious as we may think. And the equity in the landscape is also something that we have, that we are on the way to conquering. So it's an interesting conversation. Take a listen. Hello, Tina, thank you so much for joining us.

Tina Hay
Thank you for having me.

Sabrina Merage Naim
It's such a pleasure. So you are you're based in LA, I'm also based in LA so geographically not so far away. Most of our conversations with women are, you know, all over the world. But the purposes of this conversation are to talk about women's issues that are global, and you know, influential, and this is no exception at all. You are the founder and CEO of napkin finance, which is a multimedia platform where members can learn everything about money in 30 seconds or less. And I want to have you verify this number, because it's mind boggling. You reach over 80 million households with financial education resources, is that correct?

Tina Hay
That's right.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Amazing, beautiful. We're going to dig into that. So a huge portion of your career and your personal motivation has been to empower women with this information, which is what we really want to talk about today. Take us back for a moment, if you can, to what your own exposure was to financial education growing up? Was it something spoken about and prioritized in your home?

Tina Hay
So I would say I don't think I ever had a formal financial education. So never in school. But I think with my family, you know, it's interesting, I think more of what I learned, I absorbed through observation, you know, I come from an entrepreneurial family. And I've just seen a lot of people do interesting things with their lives. Not all traditional, but have done interesting things have been very successful, have been able to give back. But what I've learned, I think I've absorbed through, you know, the people closest to me, rather than actually having someone sit down with me and explain the basics, or read books, or having resources at my fingertips, which I wish I did have.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So it wasn't something that your parents said to you at an early age, "This is something you need to learn to educate yourself on." It was more of kind of through osmosis and around you.

Tina Hay
So I think two points on that. I think number one my parents have always with my siblings and myself been very clear that you need to be able to stand on your own two feet. So I think that is what my understanding was is that you need to be empowered, and to be able to take care of yourself regardless of what your circumstances are. So that's the first point. The second is I think I've I had a lot of curiosity around learning about understanding financial well being and how money works. And I find it very fascinating. And I actually think what's interesting is, I come from, you know, even in building this company, I come from a layman's perspective of, you know, not being a finance person, not being a numbers person. And I think that's what's really interesting about finances, that it's not intuitive. And what most people, really the issues most people have is that, it's really challenging to engage with it. And so the the way that we break things down, we do it for lots of people, I do it for myself, constantly, I learn all the time from the content that we produce, and simplifying things. So I think I've always had a curiosity around learning about money. And I think it should be more simple for everyone to learn about it and understand it. But as a woman, I think I've had a very different perspective than if I was a man growing up. And also, currently.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I love what you're saying, because in my other life, I'm actually in venture capital, which is a highly finance oriented industry. But finance is my weakest subject, always was in school. But I think what you're saying is that it's not intuitive, it appears that there are high barriers to entry, particularly for women. But that we persevere, and that there are resources, thanks to Napkin finance in particular, for anyone to have a higher literacy of finance. But I want to just understand a little bit more, because, you know, I think that the gender norms around financial literacy are often kind of generationally passed from one to the other. And I'm curious if your family dynamic helps to shape your own education and expectations of where you are now, today,

Tina Hay
I come from a family that has a lot of very strong empowered woman. And so I think that has definitely been something that stayed with me. And they've been role models. So I think that's one aspect of kind of my upbringing. The second is to the point of being able to be independent, and making education always a priority. I was very lucky to grow up in an atmosphere that was very supportive, and with a lot of love and encouragement. And so again, I think that their financial literacy is a tough topic and understanding money and finance, which I think is tied to every aspect of your life, you know, but I think for women, it's challenging, I think, for men as well. But I think it's more important for women just because of the challenges women face throughout their lifetime. You know, whether that's motherhood, career breaks, the wage gap, caring for elderly parents, living longer getting, you know, all all these factors, I think, lead to women actually having much more of an incentive. And it's critical that they really learn about money and finance early on.

Kassia Binkowski
When did your own interest in the industry really take shape? Having not necessarily been surrounded by it growing up. It sounds like it was it was very values based, and there was a huge precedent put on being able to take care of yourself and stand on your own two feet, but it wasn't necessarily something you were directly exposed to on a regular basis. So when did your interest in the industry professionally start to take shape? When did you see that as the path you are going to pursue?

Tina Hay
Yeah, so it's interesting, I think what interested me about money and finance was actually the entrepreneurship side. So I've always loved building businesses and finding opportunities, I feel like that's the most creative, interesting aspect of finance that I've been engaging with throughout my life. And even when I was younger, I have always been interested in building and finding interesting ideas to kind of explore. And so I think that's the angle that that was very interesting for me. And there are a lot of people who find investing very interesting or following the market. So there are a lot of different areas of finance that can get you excited, and I think as much as people take responsibility for where they they are in life and a lot of it has to do with life circumstances.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I want to talk a little bit about the the long history of the gender narrative around finances and financial literacy. So women have relied on men for generations, to be the breadwinners, to be the money managers. You and I both come from Middle Eastern heritage, were in that Part of the world is a predominantly patriarchal society where women were not always encouraged to work, women were not always encouraged to understand the finances of the household or of their lives or of their family. And I've even seen, I'm sure that you've had a lot of exposure to this as well, coming to this country, women who were married and relied on their husbands for all of the knowledge and support and then if their husbands aren't around, and they have long lives ahead, they suffer, right? They don't understand the landscape, they have never been trained to go into the workforce. You know, taxes are something.....any kind of realm of the financial literacy world is just foreign. Talk about the power dynamic for a second, when men are the money holders, women are ignorant. What are some of the threats for women of not being financially literate?

Tina Hay
Yeah, so what's interesting is, you know, deferring to your spouse or partner or waiting for someone to rescue you is common in many immigrant families, definitely in in our culture. But also, I think, a woman in general, you know, the reasons behind it all makes sense. Oftentimes women think my partner or spouse or husband knows better, is more educated, or the women are busy with motherhood and managing their home or helping care for family members. So deferring to a spouse is not necessarily something that's intentional, it just becomes part of kind of the dynamic of a relationship. And it continues on until later in life. And what's really interesting is actually UBS just did a study about women in finance. And they found that millennial women, although they want to be more empowered about money and finance, are even more likely than other generations to defer to their spouses. So 54% of millennial woman will actually defer to their spouses versus single millennial women who aspire to kind of always be empowered and control their own money and finances, which is a really interesting. This kind of trend continues of deferring and thinking that your partner knows better, but also life circumstances. And so what we've seen on our platform is we simplify money and finance in a very graphic visual simplified way. You know, what's super interesting is a lot of our readers are older women who've never had to manage their money before. They may be divorced or widowed. And so they come to our platform for the first time to learn how to budget or, you know, they're learning about managing their money and asset allocation and how to diversify their portfolio - very basic around money and finance, but they've never really had to understand them. And so that's extremely interesting. But as far as women deferring to men, I think it's a part of just traditionally the way that our life lives unfold, it makes a lot of sense. Interestingly, women are making most financial decisions day to day in their home, in their buying power. Most decisions financially are made by women. But when it comes to investing and planning for retirement, those are oftentimes defer to men. And it can have serious consequences. And by the way, interestingly I believe it's in the UBS study, but but generally, the research has shown is that about eight out of ten women, at some point in their life will be on their own. So at that point, they'll have to understand how their money works, where their money is invested, or what they need to do to take care of themselves and plan for retirement and for their family.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I'm talking about these gender power dynamics as if it's ancient history. But you're saying that this is still so prevalent today, even among younger generations who otherwise may consider themselves progressive in other ways, but this is still a big problem.

Tina Hay
It's a big problem. What's really interesting is that what's happening over the next three to four decades, there's going to be a what's called the great wealth transfer. So money is being passed down from one generation to another. And the biggest beneficiary of this great wealth transfer is actually going to be women. Which means that it's even more critical for women to understand money, for resources and tools to be catering to women, to what they read, where they live, weather, exploring information and to be able to speak to them in a in a way that resonates. So things are very interesting right now, again, women aren't under estimated - banks understand the power of women and their decisions and how impactful they're going to be in the future as clients, but also so do decision makers, investors, planners and savers.

Kassia Binkowski
What are the barriers to financial literacy among women right now, especially this millennial generation? I mean, it's easier for me to jump to conclusions about the older generation, perhaps the generation that you see more traffic from, but but for this younger generation that had more access to education that is generally marrying later, is generally more engaged with the workforce in many regards. What are the barriers to financial literacy?

Tina Hay
It's so interesting. I think it's a combination of things. So it's not just that finance is not taught in schools, parents are not always likely to speak to their children. Women don't speak to their friends about money and finance. You often talk to men, and they'll tell you about interesting deals or opportunities, they talk about it. And so it's, I believe, what is happening is it's a cycle. So women, you know, don't talk about money and finance, they feel intimidated by it. So they don't really engage. And then it's this vicious cycle where, you know, they're not investing money or planning and saving. So and it starts very young. Versus if there were better tools and resources and access to financial education, woman would be talking to their friends, they would be asking questions, they would be engaging, empowering themselves, and then they could act. And again, not be intimidated making decisions about investing, about retirement, saving, and then and planning. And so I think part of it is cultural. Part of it is just the way we engage with other women, traditional gender roles, but also, you know, real, immediate challenges that women do face. Women are making less money compared to men, there is a gap in in wages, and there are career breaks that women are taking that put them behind. We've seen in COVID actually - that's been one of the interesting unfortunate downsides of COVID - that more women are being actually sidetracked their careers, and they have to now stay home, quite a few of them to take care of their kids or help with online education. And so we're seeing that actually in a very damaging way, which all goes back to why women need to start very young, and have resources and tools to help them so we don't fall into these cycles.

Sabrina Merage Naim
You've touched on so many different things there. Societally men and women just kind of speak in different ways. They don't address the same issues. Don't talk about finance. Women don't talk about finance as much as men, socially. You're talking about the gender wage gap. You're talking about how even COVID has impacted women in a different way financially. Are there fundamental differences in the ways men and women understand or learn about finances? I mean, you kind of touched on the fact that Napkin Finance is more of a visual learning tool. Is that because women tend to learn more visually than men? Or what what is that that you see?

Tina Hay
Yeah, so again, I think most people are visual learners, men and women. Again, with finance, there's a lot of like numbers and lingo and but part of it is confidence. Right? So we've seen that when you actually look at the data, women fund managers are actually oftentimes more successful than male fund managers. And so I would say, number one, it's confidence. Number two, access. Access to resources, access to jobs, and opportunities around money and finance. The more you're in that world, the more you understand it, the more it all makes sense. Or education around money and finance. So all of these things, I think, are important factors that lead to women either being the winners or kind of losers in this money education kind of experience.

Sabrina Merage Naim
It's such a universal theme that we're seeing, in conversations with women all around the world doing different things, which is that when women have access and opportunity, they thrive, and that they bring so much value to any industry to any realm. So it's really about lowering the barriers of entry for women to come in, to understand the landscape and to be able to participate.

Tina Hay
Definitely and again, looking at the statistics even if you look in the world of VC, companies that have at least one woman on their C suite oftentimes perform better than those that don't or on their board. And again, I truly believe it should be equal for all. Financial education should be available for all women and all all men, especially the younger generations. But unfortunately, again, women have other challenges that just make it more difficult to engage with finance. And that's the biggest issue. So if there's an opportunity to get people started earlier on in investing, building confidence, having access to resources, but also being able to have conversations and empowering themselves and their friends and being able to talk about opportunities, I think that's extremely important and would be very beneficial to the next generation, especially when they go through these life events that we've talked about, whether it's having kids or getting married, getting divorced, and so on.

Kassia Binkowski
Tina, you said earlier that obviously the financial industry is huge. And there's many different career paths within that, and you personally had kind of entrepreneurial aspirations and that was what attracted you to this space. I'm assuming that the industry at large is still very male dominated? Is that the case?

Tina Hay
Definitely. And but what's interesting is we work with a lot of banks. So you know, the number you mentioned earlier, well, how we're in 80 million households is we work with banks and financial institutions, both in the US and abroad, to help them educate their clients. And what we find is very interesting is that now, you know, a lot of the top executives within these banks are women. And so I feel like things are changing, definitely for the better. Of course, there's room for improvement. But there are many more women that we engage with in these very senior financial roles.

Kassia Binkowski
Well I'm glad to hear that. I'm glad to hear that the shift is happening. Were there are gender barriers that you faced, personally, while building your own professional acumen in the financial industry? Are there ways that your own career was shaped by the very nature of being a woman in a male dominated industry?

Tina Hay
Definitely, you know, I would be lying if I didn't say, of course, it impacts opportunities and things, but I also feel like, sometimes being different, or sometimes having a unique perspective is a huge advantage for me. So I feel like, at the end of the day your product speaks for itself, right? Initially things are harder. On a personal note is I have a lot of friends, men who started businesses at the same time as me, the one thing that often happens with men, that doesn't happen with most of the female founders I encounter is, often there's this kind of this, this profile that people love seeing in entrepreneurs. It's this young guy with a hoodie, and he's super excited and passionate about his project, and people will throw money at them. And so I've had quite a few friends - male you know - they'll have an idea and a concept and they'll get huge checks written out to them, just because people are like, "I love your hustle" because they fit this profile of like the young, hungry entrepreneur, that happens to men, I've seen much more often than to women.

Kassia Binkowski
The space that you exist in is really interesting to me, because the resource space that you are building - much of which you actually give away for free via different partnerships, which is incredible - that resource base serves to change the individual's level of financial literacy. That's your target market. However, that market might not exist if there were different cultural norms if there were different gender dynamics earlier on in place. So how do we change that? What are the inroads to really create the systems change, the social change, to have women more engaged earlier on to create more opportunity for financial education earlier on to build that into institutions? What does that look like? Ay kind of on a systems level as opposed to the individual level?

Tina Hay
Part of it is in classrooms, you know, we've had experiences with schools where we've tried to work with them to introduce new curriculum, and it's been extremely difficult, which is why we think going with parents and because they have the most incentive to help their children learn early on, so parents helping their kids believe most of that learning will be outside the classroom just because the current education system doesn't incentivize people to learn about money and understand the basics. So I think there are a lot of great tools out there like Napkin Finance is one but there are a lot of great opportunities. The Khan Academy has a lot of great modules around different financial topics. And then as as, as children get older, there are also a lot of organizations that help place younger women in financial positions and in roles on Wall Street and to get involved in that world. And I think, you know, things are changing very quickly, again, with the great wealth transfer with new opportunities for women. But get starting early on is very critical, which I think why financial education starting with people before they reach high school, and before they're making important decisions about student loans, and taking on debt is really, really critical.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So, you have built this platform, you have written your book, you are partnering with financial institutions, like you said, JP Morgan, UBS, AARP, US Bank, many others, so that their customers have the, these educational resources at their fingertips. Now, the all these years later, you have access to 80 million people. What are you hearing? After people have access to these resources, they have access to new information and educating themselves. And the barriers to entry feel low. What are you hearing from users? What are the some of the testimonials that make you sit back and say "Yes, I did a good thing here"?

Tina Hay
Yeah, so we get a lot of feedback. And the number one thing is like, people are like, "I need this so badly." People come to us, even professionals and say to us, you know, the first thing I do with with every new client is I show them your ETF napkin, or we see that people are really finding that the simplicity is, is very unique, and that for the first time, they're able to understand different topics that traditionally they wouldn't engage with, and people shut down. And so I think the the best thing, the best response we ever get is where people are like "You know, I wish I had this earlier," or "I'm gonna pass this along to my children," or they buy our book as gifts for other people. You know, yesterday, I got a note from a friend who teaches a class for underserved youth, and was telling me that this book is life changing for many of them, because they don't have parents that will teach them but they don't have opportunities for jobs or resources or to make investing decisions, but they do at least have some knowledge that they can use no matter what direction their life goes.

Sabrina Merage Naim
That's incredible. And it must be so rewarding for you now to be able to see that and to know that you're helping so many people and so many women to open doors. We've talked a little bit about the necessity personally, we've talked about at different lifecycle stages why it's so important to have this level of financial literacy and the access and and also the confidence that it takes. What do you think are the doors that open for women, economically, culturally, societally when that barrier to entry does not exist anymore, when women have the same kind of financial literacy as men?

Tina Hay
I mean, I think it's infinite. I mentioned earlier, finance and money touch every aspect of your life, your well being your, your health, the time you have for improving your well being and eating better food, spending time with friends and loved ones, access to jobs and career opportunities. Everything is touched by your finances. Getting out of bad relationships, if that's what's important. None of that would be possible without having the the financial cushion, or the opportunities that people people need to be able to make the best choices for themselves in life. So it impacts every every aspect of life. So having your finances in order and having opportunities is critical to living a great life.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I just want to draw that direct correlation, again, that you just mentioned, because I think it's important. You're saying that women who may potentially be in bad relationships, maybe even abusive relationships, fear leaving their partner because they don't have the literacy and knowledge to be financially independent. And so they will potentially stay in bad relationships, abusive relationships because of this lack of financial literacy. So what you are offering is the access and the knowledge. And I mean, this is one example of so many you're saying that the opportunities are infinite, but one example that it's important to even say because it's not so natural to make that direct correlation of financial lack of financial literacy may correlate to being in a bad relationship.

Tina Hay
100%. That's what's so fascinating is when you hear those statistics about millennials deferring to their partners, I think you know the younger millennial generation Gen Z, Gen Y are incredibly lucky to have more opportunities to be able to start their careers and have their own finances and manage their own money. But again, you're seeing these patterns of depending and deferring to someone else, which can be so dangerous. I think things are changing very quickly, but not fast enough. To go back to COVID - we've seen the statistics. A lot of people have been, unfortunately in relationships that are very, very toxic for themselves and their kids due to COVID. A lot of people can't leave the home and can't leave these relationships. But just moving forward, that's always you know, having the finances to kind of be independent regardless of where you are in life. Whether it's a toxic relationship or on your own. It's critical just for for women of all ages.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Breaking Glass is a production of Evoke Media. Evoke is a nonprofit organization that exists in order to elevate the people and stories that are working to make the world a more unified and equitable place. Learn more at weareevokemedia.com