Leadership, mentorship, and communities of women

Angella Nazarian Transcript

Sabrina Merage Naim
From Evoke Media, I'm Sabrina Merage Naim, with me is Kassia Binkowski, and this is Breaking Glass, a series of conversations with women around the world who are shattering glass ceilings and challenging social norms. They are audacious, gutsy, and their stories are echoed across borders and generations in a rallying cry that is changing the narrative for women everywhere. We're talking today with Angella Nazarian - an author and entrepreneur who's dedicated her career to empowering women. And I just love this idea of women empowering women. I think it's so limitless. Angella's career has taken her from academia to writing four books predominantly about visionary women, to founding her nonprofit also named visionary women, which brings together extraordinary women for powerful conversations.

Kassia Binkowski
We're speaking with Angella about the power of women supporting other women, how transformational that can be, and how creating very intentional communities of women can actually be the key to shattering glass ceilings in so many industries. But we're also talking about creating space at the table for men, and how important that is to conversations around gender equity, regardless of the industry.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So true and and the difference between men as allies and men as advocates, we need both right? We're also talking about the toxic culture of competition and women cutting one another down, which has been prevalent for so long. Angella's take on how we can change that is really inspiring. She's a living example of the power of lifting women up. Take a listen. Good morning, Angella, thank you so much for being here. We're really excited to be chatting with you about women empowering other women, which has been such a cornerstone of your life and your career for so many years. Thank you so much for being with us.

Angella Nazarian
Well, I'm very excited to be here.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So we want to talk about your very impressive career in women's leadership, your nonprofit, Visionary Women, which brings together some of the most dynamic thought leaders in the country. And you've now written four books, which all highlight extraordinary women in some way. But before we dive into any of that, we want to kind of rewind back to your childhood in Iran. What was it like for a young girl before the 1979 revolution?

Angella Nazarian
Well, it's interesting because I'm the last and fifth child in the family. And I have three older brothers and an older sister. I happened to go to a bilingual school in Iran. So I was learning English alongside, you know, Persian literature and everything at the same time. And I also went to a school where it was very diverse. We had Muslim, Zoroastrian, Christian students. So you know, the experience I had, as a little girl going to a school like that my head master was an English lady, a British lady. So it's very different than per se, what my oldest brother who's 18 years older had, or when my father was growing up in the northern part of Iran, basically in an Jewish ghetto, and a lot of anti semitic sentiments in his village. So for me, I felt like I was in a cocoon, where I was going to school. And since the value of education was highly, highly regarded in my own personal family. I just, you know, I was always very intent on being a very good student.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I just want to touch on that for a minute, because we've heard from other women who have come from Iran that education for some of their families were much more touted for the boys or the men of the family and not as highly regarded or as prioritized for the young girls. And I'm curious if that was different in your family.

Angella Nazarian
I think in some ways, it was different and in some ways, no. They did feel that being intelligent and studious, being good at school was important for girls. But being honest, I don't think that my father nor my mom would have thought that, if it was going to be at the expense of my personal life, or my, you know, getting married later, I think they would have been very anxious they would have been, I mean, I have to be honest. But I also have to give them full credit. So when they came from Iran to the United States, I was 16 and a half, I was raised by my siblings who were much more, you know, younger with different ideologies. And they tried as hard as they could to get with the program. I wanted to go to my graduate studies and everything. And of course, it was completely attractive to David. David wanted someone like that. But my parents actually took him aside at our wedding night saying, we have one favor to ask you. And I was thinking, "What are they going to ask him?" And my father and mom said, "Just please make sure that you support her studies." Well, you know, then I say, that was the biggest gift, although he didn't need any kind of reminder in that way. I felt that at that moment, they understood who I wanted to be. And they were supportive of that.

Kassia Binkowski
When did that shift happen? I mean, you said early on that they could have never foreseen sending their daughter away. And obviously, you moved for circumstances other than your education. But when do you think that shift towards really prioritizing that for you for their fifth daughter, or their fifth child? When did that shift take place?

Angella Nazarian
To tell you the truth, I'm not really sure. You know, it's interesting, because I come from a very traditional culture. And at the time, you know, I was like, 18, or 19. And all these guys want it to date. And I would say, "Are you kidding me? I'm studying, I have no time for this. You know, I don't want to get married." And my parents would say, "Are you are you for real? Why don't you just, you know, want to go out with people?" I really don't know when that happened. I think what I can tell you - and I've actually done workshops on transitions - I think every everybody goes through some sort of transition every seven years in their life. Sometimes it's instigated by outside circumstances. And sometimes it's instigated by something that happens internally, because you are trying to become a whole person. And you're evolving. And I think it was the push and pull for me and my parents, I think they came here. They had no idea who I was as an adult. But certainly, I think within those few years, those four years, something internally was happening for them. Maybe they weren't verbalizing it. But as I was changing, they were changing along with me. And it's, it manifested itself in that moment.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So let's just paint a picture. Because your early years were in, as you say, a more traditional culture and more traditional society, very patriarchal society. You left Iran, your parents had to stay behind for some of your most formative years. You were with your siblings. And we, you know, we're just fascinated to understand how coming from that background, you went on to have a career in women's leadership. Paint a picture for us about of what was it like for the women around you? And who, who were the women that maybe, you know, were mentors or guides or who, maybe not women, maybe anyone else? Who were the people that kind of helped you along the way to get to where you are?

Angella Nazarian
I felt that oftentimes I didn't have a role model in that way. I had great role models in my family for being a good person, being someone with integrity, having compassion, but things that were outside of the home or related to work. I didn't have one. And hence, why do you think I wrote three books on women's leadership? I think one of the things that I do want to dispel in this podcast is that oftentimes people think that being mentored means that you have to have an ongoing relationship with someone at all times, where they're coaching you or they're leading the way. And I say that mentorship comes in many forms. And one of the first things that I did was I wanted to make sure that I was reading the biographies and life stories of people that inspired me. Because somehow, what they were doing gave me courage to do something in a very small way for myself. The other point that was very helpful to me and early on, I remember my second child was maybe three years old or four years old. I enrolled in this group, process class, where I think I learned so much about myself. And at the time, I was a professor at the University and I had been teaching upper division psychology courses for 11 years. And I kind of felt that I'm no longer interested in teaching those courses, but really going towards the realm of personal growth and leadership. And the first thing that that teacher - or now I call my mentor - told me is, why don't you just quit?

Sabrina Merage Naim
That easy?

Angella Nazarian
Right? It's that easy. And I thought about it. And I thought, you know, the reason why I didn't quit for for the couple of years that I was thinking about it was because I was getting so much validation. Being a professor in a university, it has a title, it has prestige. And you know, when you want to grow, you need to kind of step out of that box, and try new things. And you don't know if it's going to be good or bad. Or if it's going to be, it's going to lead you somewhere better, for sure. But you have to be uncomfortable with ambiguity.

Kassia Binkowski
So that's interesting, because I think there's, there's this level of fluidity of career paths these days, and especially of women's career paths. That's fascinating to me, and really exciting, I think, more so now than ever, they're not really linear. At least for a lot of us. What have been some of the other really surprising moments for you? I mean, there was this transition from academia to founding your nonprofit Visionary Women. But looking back now over the decades that you've had, and the pivots that you've made, what were the least expected ones?

Angella Nazarian
Well, you know, I'm making sense of my journey after the fact, I think in hindsight, you can start connecting the dots. One of the things that I did in my mid 30s, that really helped me so much was that when I was going through this massive transition of thinking, "My kids are getting older, I want to do different things" I formed two women's groups, and they were with me for almost one for almost seven years, and one for five years. And we were talking about psychology, personal growth, and transitions within that time. We would meet every week. So when I think about it, what I did was I took my training in teaching and put it towards these women's groups. But we were almost co-mentoring each other in that group, because we felt that we were accountable to each other. So when I think about it, it was something that I never thought of in that way. But I know how useful it was that I intrinsically started a support group for myself. And it made the change easier, because I felt like I was being understood within that group of people.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I want to understand a little bit better, where the fire came from. You know, you for all intents and purposes, you married pretty young, you know, you married, you checked the boxes, culturally, you had kids, you very easily could have just sat back and say, Okay, this is my life. And a lot of women take that path. And it's a beautiful path. And they are, you know, they are mothers and they raise their children. And that is the legacy. And it's a very, you know, it's an important legacy. And for you, you said that's not enough. And you didn't always have, you know, like you say the role models that are the mentors every step of the way, particularly in your family or in your community. You had to look outside for that. What was the fire that kept you going and pushed you every step of the way, particularly among women for women?

Angella Nazarian
Right. I think I had a strong sense of my own competency. Now, you know, sometimes we want to be humble, but I always thought that I was very competent, that I wasn't afraid of hard work, ever. And here's the thing. I actually think it's so exciting. It's very exciting. When you just maybe you have a goal and you say, "Huh, I wonder if I can do that." So it just becomes like a challenge for myself. And I, interestingly enough, I don't take myself too seriously. It's just that I put it out there and I go, "Let's see if I can do that." And if I wake up with the feeling that I'm buzzing with energy, that I feel alive, that's the biggest reward.

Sabrina Merage Naim
But you know, so, so much of what you're saying just in that portion, I want to pinpoint because you're saying that you are willing to try and take risks at the expense of potentially failing, falling on your face, not getting to where you want it to go. And so many of us are paralyzed by the fear, right? And that's where we stop. But you have inherently this ability to just push through. And if it works, it works. And if it doesn't, it doesn't.

Angella Nazarian
100%. And once I take the first step, the road will appear. And I'll take the next step, and I'll deal with it, I'll figure it out.

Sabrina Merage Naim
That's such a strong visual, the road is not just in front of you, the road will appear once you take the next step. And then you take the next step, and another portion of that road will appear. I like that a lot. That's powerful.

Kassia Binkowski
I also think though, it's really easy, as you said, with hindsight being 2020 to look back and see, see this string of successes and paint this this picture of courage, which you clearly embody. But take us back to one of those first steps. What was one of the scarier moments when you decided to take a leap into one of these many new directions? What did that look like?

Angella Nazarian
There's two things. I mean, the first one is smaller, and then I'll get to the bigger one. The smaller one was, once I stopped teaching at the university, I decided that I wanted to do adult education and adult personal growth. So you know, I was talking to my, you know, mentor, her name is Dr. Carolyn Conger. And she said, you know, you can do exactly what I'm doing. I'm leading court, you know, groups. So I had a little bit of an affirmation from her. But then I sent this invitation out into the ecosphere. And I was wondering if anybody would want to come? And then you start thinking, are they coming only to, what are they doing? Why are they signing up? Then you become very neurotic, you start thinking, "Are they coming because they're interested in the course or are they...." I don't know, you come up with 100 other reasons. So for me, it was fear of rejection or failing. But at each time, and I remember this, I would say, "Angella, what's the worst that can happen? Bruised ego - I can handle it. I can I can handle that." When it was about publishing my book, which the first time was really a feat in itself. I had to rewrite my book, re-edit my book several times, and I didn't even know if it would ever be published. And I said, "What do I have to lose?" I mean, I always say what do I have to lose? Nothing.

Kassia Binkowski
So if this courage, if this lack of fear of failure, is kind of a common thread that you've seen in your own story - in the 10 years that you've spent researching this and other women around the world, how do you foster that courage? I mean, you describe yours as being a little bit innate. For those who have to really overcome, to build that up, who have to overcome that fear. What are their common attributes? Where do you start? How do you build that?

Angella Nazarian
I think that's a great question. And I think it's a few things. Have you both encountered when you sit with someone you feel naturally at ease with them? Well, because they're vibrating openness, a sense of warmth, or non judgement. So there is a thought pattern within us that makes that vibration. Deepak Chopra talks about it. Eckhart Tolle talks about it. And I think our greatest task isn't about achieving anything per se, it's about elevating our thought patterns and our emotional tone to a place where it's productive for us and for those around us. So how do you enable yourself and those around you to be their fullest self? That is the biggest thing that we can do in life, and the work will come out of it. The relationships will come out of that, but it's an inside job.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So you're talking about how we can become our fullest selves in order to overcome our fears, our fear of rejection. And the boundaries that we put up for ourselves. There's also a community aspect to that, and to so much of the work that you have done. I mean, you've talked about how you've had women groups that would meet every week, and it's almost therapy for yourself as well. You know, Visionary Women, the books that you've written the classes that you've taught. But unfortunately, there's kind of a toxic nature or toxic culture of women cutting each other down, that has existed for so many generations. I mean, I, I even reached out to you on the off chance that you might have within this vast network of pioneering women, people who would be good for this show, and you're so immediately so open, so willing, so willing to open your network, and that in itself is unfortunately rare for women do for each other. And I was really taken aback by that, because my experience is you could have just turned around and been like, no, this is my my life's work, you know, you go do your own. In that, we have found that we are able to elevate each other and empower each other so much more, and that the path will, you know, will appear for each other so much faster, when there is a community that exists among women. Can you talk a little bit about the, you know, where that toxic culture comes from? And then what has shifted that we're now seeing, I believe, hopefully a renaissance of women supporting each other more than we have had before?

Angella Nazarian
Yes, I think community is a large part. And I, I'll go back to two things, and then answer your question. I mean, one of the things that we talked about women and success, and through all the interviews that I've done, one thing that we all know is that a lot of trailblazers are very imperfect women. So the point is that they don't hold onto thinking how they're going to keep improving their imperfections, they really are looking at their strengths. And they go, "Okay, if this is my strength, I'm just going to push ahead on this, and I'm going to be okay, with not being such a, you know, fantastic in all areas of my life." That's number one. Number two thing is that they have always, in order to be a trailblazer, you need to build community. And it's a very interesting situation, because most leaders are very charismatic. So they're able to bring a lot of people under their vision to follow the same vision as them. So with the added support, the collective voice, you gain more power and influence, and you can do more things together. I always say if you want to go fast, somewhere, you go alone. But if you want to go far, you have to go with people. So in anything that I try to do, where I feel that I want to have lasting change I'm all for sharing, sharing the project with as many smart capable people as possible, because they're going to be in at the same time supporting my vision. And my vision is for a better women's community period. Part of it is that we need to work hard at feeling that there's no scarcity in success or in influence. And I think that the power dynamics that women had in the decades past, it was that there were very few slots for women to achieve what they could achieve. So therefore, it was very difficult for them to share, to share that power, or whatever they felt they had that position. But I think we are entering a completely different era where I think a lot of women are not only seeing the benefits of banding together, but they're also seeing the benefits of actually collaborating with men. And that at the end, it's the support system that you create within your life and in your own community that will propel you forward. So we need to build bridges with as many women and men as possible.

Kassia Binkowski
So this is really fascinating to me this observation about scarcity of success, and they're not needing to be a scaricty of success. You know, and I think I hear you when you say that with more opportunities opening up, we can all realize and appreciate that little bit more. But I also am interested in this idea of you having built your career on women supporting other women. Is there is there a fundamental difference in the outcome or the impact when women are in community with other women? I mean, I hear you when you say that it's important that we build those communities with men as well. And that, that pushes us all to be better and creates opportunity for all of us. But at the same time, you've dedicated your career to bringing women together.

Angella Nazarian
So I think there's a different energy when women are together, I mean, I certainly feel that there's completely different. And there's still very few forums where women can come to not only learn together to network to learn from one another. Around 12 years ago, or maybe 10 years ago, my greatest wish that was that I was attending my husband's young presidents organization groups as a spouse. And what I found in YPO, is that they would come together every month, to hear a great speaker, they would build friendships within that YPO group. They would, it was not only social, but educational and professional. So there's three intersections. And in that YPO group, I think there were maybe two women members. And of course, the criteria for YPO is very high. And I felt to myself, you know, I go to all these women's conferences, you get so inspired by these people, and then you leave and for a whole year, you have no contact with anyone, how is that going to sustain your growth? How is that going to sustain you through doing things? So what I wanted to do with my best friend, Lily Bossy was to come up with a women's community that's a hybrid of this model of YPO. Maybe it's not as important that you have 100 employees and are making X amount of dollars in terms of salary but saying we want women. And in our cultural ethos, we were very particular. We said, it comes through recommendations, referrals. It doesn't matter if you're working or not, but we want interested people, and we want women who are wholeheartedly going to be supporting other women, and they're going to be putting their money behind women. That means that in order to become a member, whether it's $1000 or $5000 or $25,000, we'll make sure that that membership fee 100% of it goes back to women's initiatives. So you are giving back and you get a forum where you get to meet women from all walks of life. Their leaders in different... I actually love Gloria Steinem we had her come and speak last year, she said something that resonated with me. We need more intergenerational conversations, we need an 18 year old to be sitting with a 55 year old. What what we see are women 50 to 70. Together, bunched up to get know, we need intergenerational conversations. And we need conversations amongst women that are from different walks of life. Because we can get tunnel vision.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I love the idea that women taking it into their own hands to create that community, create that support system to keep it going to support financially women's initiatives. I do think that resonates a lot with me as well the intergenerational dialogue and understanding of that. We had an episode recently with a woman named Jeanne Yang who is a top celebrity stylist in Hollywood and one of the things she talked about was how her twin daughters went to all-girls schools and how being in that culture without worrying about you know the boys and dressing up or competing or whatever it is that girls you know, do get catty with each other because boys are present. It changed everything for them. And I actually also went to an all girls Catholic High School, and it never occurred to me until so many years later that there was any question. For a community, even among the different groups of girls, you know, the cool girls, the nerdy girl or whatever, they all still existed, the cliques existed. But we all still had a community. Right? There was a level of comfort, there was a level of camaraderie, there was a level of support that existed there. And I don't want to, I don't want to suggest that men have to be, you know, separated from women for that to exist. In. On the contrary, I actually think that we have to get better about how to stand up and support each other, and elevate each other, particularly when men are present. So I love I love hearing that with, with Visionary Women, I love hearing that men do need to be present for this, that men not only need to be allies, but advocates, right? That, you know, it shouldn't, it shouldn't necessarily be us waiting for the opportunities in the career landscape to show up in order to not fight with each other about it anymore, that we aren't making those opportunities available.

Angella Nazarian
It's true. And you know, of course, we're an all women's group, but many years back, because I strongly believe that was our next step in our evolution in the feminist movement. And that's the other thing, how so many people think of the feminist movement as what it was in the 1960s, or 70s. And it's not, it's not it's a different thing. Even if you ask 18 year olds or 25 year olds, about feminism, their idea of feminism is so completely different. So we always have to also clearly define what we're after. We, I think a lot of people have misperceptions of things because things are not clearly defined. By but I always feel that the next step is actually bringing some male speakers once in a while and ask them how what are they doing on their behalf? So we had Brian Grazer, and Ted Saran around four years ago, come and talk. And funny enough, both of them had female mentors.

Kassia Binkowski
Go figure.

Angella Nazarian
Yeah, isn't that interesting? And then, you know, Ted was talking about how, actually, Netflix at the time was coming out with the film with The Crown, an episode of The Crown. And he said, we have female show runners, we have female centric, uh, you know, storytelling, we have female writers, we want to do more films about women in leadership. So, you know, I think that the general culture does a lot as well, to help shift perceptions of things. How many women do you see in leadership positions in the media? How many women do you see on boards?

Sabrina Merage Naim
Slowly but surely, a little bit more now than it used to be. But certainly not to where it should be.

Kassia Binkowski
It raises an interesting question, though. You you have a very global network, you have a very global career. But you also I mean, you were you were born in Iran, you presumably still have a deep network of relationships there. So how much of that is that culture? How much of these barriers are cultural? How much of these barriers are psychological? Where does that stem from? Have you teased any of that apart in your research?

Angella Nazarian
In terms of, I think it's not cultural. I don't think it's cultural. It's psychological,

Kassia Binkowski
In terms of kind of creating, creating those spaces for women creating those opportunities.

Angella Nazarian
You know, I look at one of the women that I actually even brought into speak at Visionary Women is Lima B to Sherrie Nachman to Katharine Graham. I mean, I can list 40, almost 40 to 50% of them Marina Abramovic. They did their most important work at midlife or after that.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Why do you think that is?

Angella Nazarian
I think they're just more comfortable with themselves. I think that they can, you know, I think there's something about harnessing your own talent and energy towards something that you when you are passionate about something you will expend 10 times more energy, you will feel less discouraged. You also have a higher EQ, so you know how to deal with people. I mean, it makes perfect sense to me actually. It really makes perfect sense. Why do we feel that by age 30 we should have been doing something very important?

Kassia Binkowski
Right? I wish we could alleviate that pressure and, you know, spread that message. Because I think there's, there's so much personal and social and familial pressure in your 20s, to figure that out to know your path.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I wonder if there's also a connection between your height in terms of your physical, or, you know, your beauty kind of in your 20s and 30s. And, and, and I say that kind of from a cultural expectation standpoint, although I actually believe that women in their, you know, 50s, and 60s who have that level of confidence, who have that level of unapologetically themselves, who feel, you know, are more lived in, right, for lack of a better term, that beauty is transcendent. But I think that there's also a connection with, you know, you are physically most fit in your 20s. And that's when you should be doing everything, right. That's when you should be knowing, you know, figuring out your life and accomplishing your highest. But there's a separation there, there's like a really big kind of gap.

Kassia Binkowski
You're talking about a disconnect between physical fitness and mental confidence, emotional development, right?

Sabrina Merage Naim
And that EQ that milling, you know, that EQ that, that being unapologetically "This is who I am, I don't need to change myself or apologize for myself," and that level of comfort that you in your midlife reach, right?

Angella Nazarian
You're both hitting on something important. And it was also written in my third book, and also Malcolm Gladwell writes about it as well. And that, what we get is that if you are true to leaders, leaders that are pioneers, they have something that's very interesting, they know how to get along with people, they're very socially apt. But at the same time, they don't fear ostracism. So it's interesting, it's a double edged sword, they can withstand the pressure of being ostracized, yet, they're very good with people. That both of them, you have to have both those traits, because if you are going to be doing something outside of the box, guess what? You will for sure be hitting some walls, some people aren't going to come back to you and call you names or judge you for it. Yet, these women that were truly going to accomplish something, could brush that aside. And not care about that. But yet at the same time, they were so good with people and they could get their support another way.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I think it's important to acknowledge that, even for the women who who get bruised, but care, right, there are those who just brush it aside, like it's nothing. There are many more who will care that that hurts, you know, it hurt. But the point is to pick yourself up, and just do it again, and try and try and try and to find that courage, either within yourself or among your community, to keep going and to try the new things that will push you forward and elevate your career, your life, your relationships, whatever that might be. I'm curious, now over a career that has spanned teaching, you know, philanthropy, being an author of books, bringing women together and communities, far and wide - what have been some of your biggest surprises along the way?

Angella Nazarian
You know, my dream right now is I want to have Madeleine Albright and Condoleezza Rice in conversation with one another. That sounds phenomenal.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I'll pay good money for that.

Angella Nazarian
Yes, you know, this came to me and I'm putting it out there in the universe. If it doesn't happen this year, it's gonna happen another time, but I want to make it happen this year. And, you know, suddenly, I feel like the surprise is this trust I have that things will work out. I'll find, you know, the right connection of find the right person, because you know, your resume will speak for itself.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Well, it's exactly what you're saying that you just put one foot in front of the othe, you took one more step and then the road appeared and you took one more step and the road appeared and now you don't have doubts that the road will appear. You know, it works.

Angella Nazarian
Yeah. So you know I get you can see by me you're looking at my face I get tickled by the idea. I just kind of say, Okay, let's see if I can make that happen. That'll be so great. I just love it. That's for me, it's like the reward.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Breaking Glass is a production of Evoke Media. Evoke is a nonprofit organization that exists in order to elevate the people and stories that are working to make the world a more unified and equitable place. Learn more at weareevokemedia.com.