‘Tis the Season for Contentious Conversations

Sabrina Merage Naim & Kassia Binkowski Transcript

Sabrina Merage Naim
Hello, my dear.

Kassia Binkowski
Hey, how are you?

Sabrina Merage Naim
I'm good. It's nice to be back. It's been a while for me. And I know our listeners have been hearing my voice throughout. But I've been gone for a few months because I was having a baby, no big deal. No big deal, just a small thing, a small, you know, milestone. And I've been following along. And it's been so exciting to hear how our season has progressed. And I think that we've had some amazing conversations with incredible guests. And here we are to round out the season with a conversation, just you and me to talk about something that can be very triggering for a lot of people, which is the holidays.

Kassia Binkowski
Yeah, they're lovely. And they're also hard.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, there's so much pressure going into this time of year, the emotions are very high, family dynamics can be very complicated. And I just want to acknowledge that we all have various forms of baggage around the holidays and around family dynamics. And when it's nice, it's really nice. And when it's hard, it's really hard. And that's okay. But we're here to tell you that it can also be really great and refreshing to have some of those interesting and somewhat difficult conversations that inevitably happen around the holidays. Yeah,

Kassia Binkowski
I mean, I do want to reflect for a moment on the fact that something about the past, I don't know, three years, it just has felt as though there are so many deeply polarizing issues. And maybe that's just adulthood, like maybe I'm just actually a grown up now. And so I'm aware of them or talking about them or something.

Sabrina Merage Naim
No, no, I think you're right, things are just a lot, sensitivities are heightened. And passions are more passionate. So it's more, I think, acute now than I've ever felt it for sure.

Kassia Binkowski
And it just feels like there's been a lot of issues, at least for me personally, where it's honestly affected. I think of people I know who have a different stance than I do on a given issue. And we'll talk through some of these abortion, vaccination, gun violence, whatever, like the list is really long. But there have been issues that feel so reflective of your values, that it's been hard for me to see my way to that other side, it's been hard for me to honestly even find respect sometimes for people who have decided to dig their heels in on the other side of one of these issues. Because I think it's so reflects who you are and what you believe in that there were instances where I wanted to disassociate with those people all together. And where I drew my line, for better or worse. And I'm not here to say that that was the right stance. But there's something about the gravity of these issues and the significance of these issues in society right now that has made wrestling with them and having hard conversations about them. So challenging, because I personally feel so right. In my in my position, which I acknowledge is is ridiculous or All

Sabrina Merage Naim
Right. It is much more challenging to see yourself to the other side of a conversation that is affecting real life, human beings on a daily basis, that is potentially making lives more difficult, or, you know, oppressive in a variety of ways. It makes us feel, right, because we think we have the moral high ground. And that is true on both sides of every argument. And it is especially true during a time where social or political issues have become exceptionally divisive and polarizing. Like the pendulum is certainly swinging from one side to the other. And the extremes are growing further and further away from each other. Which is exactly why we wanted to have this conversation with a podcast that can sometimes feel frankly, one sided, right? And we never want to share just one side of any story or one side of any argument and that is why we're reflecting on exactly what it is that we can do as individuals and as a podcast, you know as a medium in order to help get us back to a place of understanding a place of I'm listening and curiosity and support for a variety of viewpoints. And that's something that I really want us to kind of dig into with real life stories of things that have happened to us as of late.

Kassia Binkowski
All right, Sabrina, give me a story.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So I'm going to start with one that actually happened to me yesterday, which was just beautiful timing. It sets up the conversation, and it sets up another story beautifully, because I have a cousin who is a highly educated, you know, accomplished woman, she is a psychotherapist, she has her PhD, she has an MBA, she has experience in the finance and business world, she has experience in psychiatry, and, you know, everything in between. She's also very articulate, and in some ways, more traditional than I am in certain issues. Okay. And I think what was really interesting is in this conversation, it led me to understand first of all, that we are not a binary in terms of, I am either all conservative, or all liberal, I am either all progressive, or all conservative are all red or all blue. I think most of us vacillate back and forth, depending on the issue. And we sit somewhere in the middle, right? So for me, that was really helpful to kind of go into this conversation, because in many ways, my cousin and I do see eye to eye, in many issues, we are very much aligned, and in some things, maybe not as much. And what's beautiful about that, is it the starting off point, doesn't feel divisive, right? It feels more like I am coming to the table with curiosity. So we were talking about feminism, and how my cousin is, gets very passionate about the fact that people in this generation, particularly more recently, call themselves feminists without really understanding the roots of the movements are without having educated themselves in any way shape, or form on the actual academic history of what happened and where it came from. And the theology of it and the whole thing, right. In her opinion, it is the the movement has become perverted into something that it absolutely is not. And in the conversation, I was asking a lot of questions around why and what do you think that perversion is, and her point was, there is a tool called Google Scholar that blocks out the noise of the internet. And you can go and look up an issue and read an article, right read one scholarly something that actually is rooted in the movement that is rooted in, in truth, without the subjective nature of certain things, and educate yourself a little more. Now my argument is, it is unrealistic to expect that everyone in this world is going to be as academically curious as someone like she is. But does that mean that we are immediately disconnected from a movement that otherwise we care about or otherwise we think is worth our time?

Kassia Binkowski
Right? And there are also you know, this, this specific conversation I find really interesting because I'm working with this group of women right now from all around the world who support and fund feminist activists. So real front line activism, and they are quick to take the stance, that it is not feminist movement, singular, like this is not the feminist movement, there are feminist movements, plural, happening all over the world, and that they are regional in nature, but they share a value base. And I think somebody can latch on associate with identify with those values, without ever having an understanding of the academic or historical origins of a movement. And I think there's something that feels a little bit like shooting yourself in the foot to ask that or expect that of the general public when what you really need is more people to be participate meaning, right, like the success of the movement, the effectiveness of the movement requires more people more participation, greater acceptance. Yeah.

Kassia Binkowski
I think there's there's a lot to that, my guess is that her pushback would be participation in itself is not enough. So I didn't always agree with things that she was saying she is extremely articulate, she is educated. Okay, that helps, I have to say, when you're coming to a conversation around, you know, complex issues, where you don't always agree, it helps to be

Kassia Binkowski
informed. It helps to be informed, it helps to be reading and trusting the same sources of information, right, it helps to agree on what is truth, or what is historical fact. But I think it's really important. Like I think of heading into some of these conversations over the holidays and conversations I've had, I think of a conversation with my aunt that I had mid pandemic, or probably early pandemic, who reads fake news and believes it to be the gospel and like believes it to the core of her being that she is reading accurate information. And I acknowledged this, I go into conversations very hot, like I am an opinionated person, and I am good at listening. And I'm good at asking questions. I'm not always good at coming with an articulate defense, you know, to explain my position because I come in, so passionate, for better or worse.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I will say that my learnings from that conversation, what I came away from is that you can have different sides of an issue while still having a thought provoking, respectful conversation that challenges your assumptions, and positions on what otherwise are emotionally charged issues based on deep and open dialogue. Now, again, that is coming from a place of truth, truth and mutual respect and mutual respect. Okay. We were not kind of waiting to jump on each other. We weren't waiting for our turn to talk. I was not trying to educate her. And she was not trying to educate me. We were bringing different perspectives to the table. I was willing to ask questions, you know, even if it felt painful at times, that was something that was was a real learning for me around a thought provoking conversation that I came away with being like, Hmm, I'm willing to expand my horizons, I am willing to consider different perspectives because of that. Mutual respect, and, and respect of truth.

Kassia Binkowski
Okay, so tell me about a flop. I think plenty of us are headed into holidays, where we are surrounded with people who we may not have those two things in common.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So let me tell you about what started as many flops and that what ended in success. Okay. Okay. I have an uncle, who I, whom I love dearly. I grew up with him almost as a second father. We have had many wonderful, wonderful adventures in life. He and I do not at all see eye to eye on many political and social issues. And I should say that he also differs with his own kids on many political and social issues.

Kassia Binkowski
Okay, paint a picture for us for a second. How old is he? Which way does he vote? Give us a little more detail, help us picture this person.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Okay, he is late 60s, immigrant, votes, usually right. Much more conservatively, leaning much more traditional and values, more religious. But he's family. Yes. He also, it's important to say is loving, kind, right?

Kassia Binkowski
He's not a bad human.

Sabrina Merage Naim
A good father, a wonderful grandfather and one of my favorite human beings. Okay. But we never agree on a lot of these issues. Okay. And long before the Trump era, we would get into heated debates about issues that I cared deeply about social issues that I cared deeply about. Gay marriage, you know, things that abortion, things like that, that to me, I feel like personally attacked when someone does not agree with me, or doesn't see my position. And in the past, the way that those conversations always went was we would start literally screaming in each other's faces. Okay, and this is someone I love and we're like screaming at each other at a Friday night dinner or whatever. And My blood is boiling. It never ends. Well, it just is a disaster. So fast forward to Trump era. You know, he's clearly reading news that have very different sources than I am. And it's like you said, it is really hard to have a baseline conversation with someone who has different sources.

Kassia Binkowski
Well, they start to exist in a different realityy. The information that we are each consuming shapes the entire landscape that we exist in, and the reasons why things are unfolding. And if you're existing in a different reality than I am, it's really, really hard to have a calm, poised, thoughtful conversation, because you're pointing to different things.

Kassia Binkowski
Exactly. So already, it feels like there's no success here. Okay. But this past summer, Roe v. Wade is overturned. And you and I did and released an episode about that, like, right as it was happening. And I have a family WhatsApp chat, and I posted the episode there. Now, in our family WhatsApp chat, we have kind of a no politics rule, because we have people from varying, you know, just very different political and social beliefs. And we don't want to be disrespectful of each other. We want it to be light, and always with love. Now, I posted this thing,

Kassia Binkowski
Because you threw the rule out the window or because you felt like "I'm gonna walk the line"?

Sabrina Merage Naim
It's it's a good question. It's because I see it as a human rights issue. Which to me, Trump's political issue,

Kassia Binkowski
Oh, that's sticky, because aren't like so many of them are human rights issues. And they have all been deeply politicized.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Exactly. So arguably, anyone in my chat, who is pro life and whatever could have come back and been like, You're a hypocrite because by the way, I was the one who instituted this policy.

Kassia Binkowski
Okay, so you're, you're gearing for a fight.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So I'm in for a fight. And I will, I will acknowledge that it was not only sticky, but I was being somewhat hypocritical, because I was the one that instituted this policy. And then when it served my purposes, I was the one that, you know, I ignored the policy. But we were clearly also heated, this was something that we were very, everyone was very passionate about one way or the other, and I put it up there and my uncle bites, okay. And it starts a conversation in our chat about this issue one way or the other, and different people are kind of commenting. And I have another cousin who is also a therapist, who has clients that are survivors of rape and who have had to have abortions, and it is extremely emotionally charged for her because she knows people in these positions, you know, and so she jumps in and it gets like, already really heated. And in text form, you know, that it's like, oh, it's no good. Yeah, I mean, that should also just be a rule here is like, just don't have these conversations in text. I agree. But here's where it it went right. After a few what felt like jabs back and forth. And things started to spiral. My uncle comes back into the chat. And he was like, Sabrina, I would love to take you out to lunch one day and hear your perspective. And I said, Okay. Meanwhile, I should say that everyone, like my multiple other members of the family, like texted me separately, and they were like, are you crazy? You're gonna do what? Like, what? You're just setting yourself up for failure? Why are you doing this? And I was like, No, this is part of what I have learned as part of this podcast is that we need to come to the conversation with respect and curiosity, and not just an agenda to jump down everyone's throats. It's also we need

Kassia Binkowski
to come to the conversation. Like I think it's pretty easy to walk through life right now. And put up your blinders and draw your line and have your position on these things. And if we never show up for the conversation, and are willing to ask the hard questions, and really empathize and try to understand why somebody believes what they do, regardless, like not trying to convince them not trying to persuade or educate them, but just trying to understand if we don't ever do that the needle never moves anywhere. Like we all just stay in our lane and we don't see any progress.

Kassia Binkowski
I think it's so easy for us to kind of hear that and rationally be like, Yes, and that's not me, right? I'm not part of the problem, right? But we all are part of the problem of we all are I mean, we have been sucked into this, this society where it pits us against each other, more and more and more. So yeah, it is a risk to show up to a conversation like this with an open heart and an open mind. And I have to give him so much credit because he really took it upon himself to come to the table with an open heart and open mind himself, he wanted to understand why it matters so much to me. So he started by asking questions, and he physically stopped himself from interjecting at several points in the conversation, in order to hear me out. And for my part, I really tried my best to be calm, right to calm my passion in order to speak to an issue that I care so deeply about with a level head, because it could have so easily turned into one of those shouting matches again, it's so easily could have turned into, you know, my passion completely taking over. And then he would have shut down and been defensive, and I would have shut down and been defensive and nothing would have happened. But what happened is that we came away with more respect for each other, acknowledging that we sit on different sides of an issue. But understanding where the other's position stems from right, which I think is a huge step in the right direction, even just mutual respect and understanding. Like, we didn't change each other's minds. Right. Right.

Kassia Binkowski
And you weren't trying to. That wasn't the goal, you didn't come in with that objective.

Sabrina Merage Naim
What did happen is, I heard him say, "You gave me some really important things to think about." And I came away saying, "You know what, I am hearing a human side to his position that I was not willing to consider before it was refreshing."

Kassia Binkowski
And I'm what I'm hearing you say is that his willingness to say, "Why do you care? Why does this matter to you?" That was a game changer. And I think that's true of any of these conversations, is trying to acknowledge that people didn't always feel that these topics were urgent or critical to them, until it struck close to home for a lot of us, right. So understanding like the human side of it, understanding why somebody cares, understanding what their experience has been of an issue is so important to building that respect. Even if you're heading in on different sides of debate, right? Like if we can just humanize it, what I think of is, is gun violence. And I think I've always had a position on it. But then in 2021, there was actually a mass shooting in my town. And it hit closer to home that I would wish on anybody but certainly than I ever imagined. And it wasn't until that happened, like until that day, when I remember the eerie silence in the town. And I remember like, flurries of text messages being sent to friends to like account for everybody, you know, like it was a store we had all been to that we all go to regularly. And it became a topic that was deeply personal in a way that it just hadn't before. And every conversation that I have know about it. That's what I lead with, right of like the story of that day, and what that felt like stories that we can tell that humanize these issues and these experiences, the more likely we are to find common ground.

Kassia Binkowski
Yeah, these are all so sensitive. And what comes up for me is that there have been so many conversations for us on this podcast where a different perspective or historical context or, or further education on an issue that felt so easily black and white, became gray. And that's kind of the biggest reminder that I take into the holidays is that I can feel very passionate about a subject I can feel personally impacted by a subject. I can even think that I'm absolutely 100% Right, you know, but that it's still all gray, we cannot go into these conversations with black and white perspectives. There is no such thing as a complete right and wrong and binary, this and that even when it feels obvious. There are shades of grey every step of the way. So keep that in mind. Take care of yourselves. enjoy as much as you can. And jump into the conversations with curiosity with respect, ask more question. questions than anything. It is an important time for us to turn away from the divisiveness and try and bridge ourselves back towards each other. It has never been more heated. These kinds of conversations have never been more heated than they are right now. Let's be part of the bridge back to each other. Let's come back with love with love and respect.

Kassia Binkowski
Happy holidays everyone.

Sabrina Merage Naim
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