Regretting Motherhood and Choosing not to Mother

Orna Donath Transcript

Orna Donath
You know, everybody's telling us you must become a mother because it will change your life. Well, I'm saying yes, indeed, it will change your life. So why as a society, we assume that for all of us, it will change it for the best.

Kassia Binkowski
Pregnancy, parenthood and regret, social pressure, gender roles and regret. Having babies and regret. I'm Kassia Binkowski. I'm taking the opportunity to rerelease one of our most beloved conversations from season one, a show that you guys showed up for Because apparently, we were talking about something that nobody else was talking about. What you're about to hear is a conversation we had with Orna Donath, an author and Doctor of sociology, Orna, is based in Tel Aviv, Israel, and she spent decades decades you guys researching the stigma women experience when they choose not to mother, or when they regret becoming mothers. It's a huge, huge emotional burden to unpack and Orna does. So with such grace, she pulls back the curtain on her own experience, her choice to not have children and what she's learned from endless hours of interviews with women who regret motherhood, take a listen.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Orna, thank you so much for joining us all the way from Tel Aviv. This is a conversation that we are especially interested to dive into something that we don't hear a lot about. And we really are excited to kind of delve into your research and some of the the origin of the story. So thank you for being with us.

Orna Donath
Thank you very much for inviting me to be with you.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Absolutely. So first, tell us a little bit about yourself, where did you grow up? And how did you end up pursuing sociology.

Orna Donath
I was born and raised in Israel. And to cut a long story short, when I was 16, I realized and I said, as in my family as well, that I will never get married. And I will not have children. And I know many people are saying to me that it's quite young to say, but my friends, it's high school, at the age of 16 talks all the time about "When I will be a mother, I will have three children, their names will be this and that..." And because they talked about it, for them, it was quite quite obvious at the age of 16, that they will turn into mothers, that they will become mothers. It gave me the opportunity to think about it for myself, and to realize that it's not my dream, I cannot see myself going down this road. Deep down I already asked questions about society and what we are told that we must do and not to in our lives. And for me, that was the first step step towards sociology. I at the age of eight, that's really interesting, because at the age of 16, if you would tell me that someday, I will be a sociologist and I will have a PhD in sociology. I would laugh, because I also didn't see this kind of the road.

Sabrina Merage Naim
What what were you envisioning even at 16? What were you envisioning for down the road that was not sociology,

Orna Donath
I always said to my surroundings, that I think that I will never find the exact thing that I would like to do in life, that it was not invented yet. But this was kind of a surprise for me, because when I read, you know, the book of Tel Aviv University about all the options that I can go to and learn. When I opened and read about sociology and anthropology. I immediately said, "This is my home. This is my home." So I didn't know it in advance and then I started doing my, you know, the first degree and that's when it was a done deal. I just just I was so curious. I never wanted an academic career and I am still not relating to myself like, like a career woman or something like that. I'm just the curiosity lead leads the world for me, and here I am. It's it's not what I planned for myself. But I knew about motherhood that it was not meant for me that was quite obvious.

Kassia Binkowski
What were people's reactions to a 16 year old girl saying that - declaring - something that is still, you know, radically different than what all of your peers were hoping for, and planning for? How did people react?

Orna Donath
I think that until my first book was published here in Israel, my first book was published when I was 34. I think that all of my surroundings, assume that it's a kind of technical bug in the system.

Kassia Binkowski
A phase, it's a phase. She's going through a phase.

Orna Donath
And it will be, everything will be alright. And when I published my first book, here in Israel, at the beginning, I wrote about me not wanting to be a mother. And I think that's the point where my surroundings started to understand that I'm serious about it. I'm truly serious about it. I never got a lot of pressure from my family. They do, my parents do want me to be still. They do want me to be a mother, because they really liked - and still like - being parents, and they wanted me to share to share their experiences as well. But they're not pushing me. And I'm already 45. So it's out of out of the question already. For myself, I never considered it as a problem that I must solve. I never went to therapy, try to understand whether where is it coming from? Am I afraid of something for me? It was quite, of course, there is a diversity of female identities. Of course, what's the question here - of course, we don't want the same thing just because we have the same biological origins. But quite soon, I understood that the society has a problem with me. And that's where my political journey began.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So so let's just clarify because you've done a lot of research in terms of motherhood, non motherhood, societal societal pressure, and the role of society and all of that. And then in 2015, you published regretting motherhood, your your second book, right? And the book was a combination of years of research, and interviewing women across socio-economic, professional and educational backgrounds. Tell us about the experience of compiling this research. It must have been extremely intimate these conversations, because essentially what it is, these are mostly women who have become mothers, and then after the fact, acknowledge that they regret that decision. How did you get women to kind of come forward, given the crazy amount of stigma societally to admit to something like that? What made them comfortable to come to you and tell their stories?

Orna Donath
I guess there's that one of the things is that was that my first book was published, and before, a few years before, and I was in the press here, a lot, a lot of interviews here in Israel. And I think that they, a lot of women, like I guess, saw me and listened to and heard me also on the radio, and I guess they understood that I will not judge them. And I had already like the surface of my first study here in Israel. And I guess that they heard from my voice, from my intentions, that I will understand, even though I'm not a mother, or because I'm not a mother, I will understand, and I will not judge them. And, you know, on the on one hand, it was it's quite scary to talk about it. But on the other hand, they were yearning to talk about it because they couldn't say to anyone, almost to anyone surrounding them,

Sabrina Merage Naim
Which, right, which leads me to wonder and I'm sure this is a big part of your research is how many other mothers are out there who feel this way, but just won't say it because of that feeling of shame or that stigma that society puts on them. These are the women who came to you, you know, against the odds who felt comfortable enough, because they knew you wouldn't judge them. Well, pretty much everyone else has a judgement about that. And so, there are for sure many, many more mothers out there that feel this way, but won't ever admit to it. Right?

Orna Donath
We will never know how many mothers feel the same and regret, we will never know.

Kassia Binkowski
You've studied something that there's really so little conversation about. Do you think the lack of conversation around regretting motherhood is a product of those numbers still being fairly low? And so it's just not that common of an experience? Or is it a product of those mothers being silenced by the shame and stigma associated with that feeling?

Orna Donath
I'm not claiming that most of the mothers or the majority of the mothers are regretting. I do believe that there are more than we think. This is what I can't really estimate how many women? I don't, I guess it's let's say, we don't know the size of this minority? We don't know. And I'm not that we will ever know. But I believe I do believe that. It's more that we would like to think.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I mean, this is this is fascinating to me. Both Kassia and I are mothers to young children. I can tell you that almost on a daily basis, there is a moment where I will I will be like Why the fuck did I do this to myself? I regret this decision. Yeah, I regret this so much. Never, never whole days, right? There's always kind of the acknowledgement that within a single day, there are beautiful moments and wonderful moments and then shit moments of being a mother. And I think that continues forever. I can't say that I regret like totally making this decision. I do not fall into that category. That being said, since the beginning of time, women have been defined by our capacity to nurture and care for children, that has been the role that women have played forever, but your body of work really challenges that the very definition of what it means to be a woman if not to have children. And on one hand, I really respect that because I think that we need to open up the kind of definition and the possibilities and the the whole array of what being a woman means. And, and yet, I also want to understand where that regret stems from. In your research, can you tell us some of the reasons some of the feeling some of the, you know, what is it but up against?

Orna Donath
First, I would like to say that we are facing a kind of, you know, as a spectrum of emotions. And I think that in the middle, many mothers will share what you are sharing what you're saying it's a kind of an ambivalent feelings like, and it goes like that the structure is like that I'm having hardships in, within my motherhood. But the smile of my child is worthwhile, everything. And I'm not regretting it, and I think that many of the Muslim mothers will be will be in this like, the audience cannot see like the bell, you know, the...

Sabrina Merage Naim
The bell curve. Yeah.

Orna Donath
So I think so I interviewed the mothers who are not saying they're not ambivalent it's not the same. They're saying "I'm having hardships I don't like it. Period. It's not for me."

Sabrina Merage Naim
To be clear a lot of those women and please correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of those women will still say you know, I love my children. Yeah, I want them to have like beautiful futures I want the best for them right right. But I am not the person I was so - so what is the why?

Orna Donath
First I will say that for me it seems quite logic because regret is a is a part of the human experience. We regret everything you regret everything. Why did I marry him or her? Why didn't I marry here him or her? Why did I go to set this and that that why did I made this to to and here and not there and And, you know, we regret everything. It's a part of the human life, it's part of being subjects that can imagine, evaluate, you know, everybody else, everybody's telling us, you, you must become a become a mother because it will change your life. Well, I'm saying yes, indeed, it will change your life. So why as a society, we assume that for all of us, it will change it for the best? This I think this is the question. And the question, why do they regret? There is not like a such, there is not a dramatic stories there about, you know, problematic children, non normative children, or they're just saying, "Yeah, this is motherhood, it's not for me, it's not for me."

Sabrina Merage Naim
In almost every decision that we make in our lives, we have the opportunity to pivot away or to change that course, you know? If I married the wrong person, I can get divorced, right? If I am studying something that I don't like, I can change my major. If I am living in a city, that's not for me, I move. There are all of these decisions that we make that maybe we regret in different ways, or we decide it's not for us, and we can kind of just change that decision, we can make a move we can even if it's difficult. You can't do that with motherhood, right? You can't be like, "Oh, I tried it, I'm gonna put the genie back in the bottle." Right? Well, it's not for me. But what you're saying is just like with any other kind of decision, some people will not feel connected in that same way,

Orna Donath
Right. Motherhood is a relationship. It's not the job, it's not a role. It's an intersubjective relationship. And that is why it can have all the human emotions regarding it. And it's, it's corrected regarding motherhood as well, you cannot undo it. So two things, one, that, okay, we cannot undo it, you know, physically, but in our inner worlds, we can wish we could have undone it. And that's what that's okay. In your inner world, you can wish it even though you can't really do it. And second of all, because this is the case, I think we should be, we shouldn't let society off the hook for seducing all of us into motherhood, because it's cannot be undone. Let us decide according to our acquaintance with ourselves, our abilities, disabilities wishes, this is exactly what I'm saying. Because we cannot undo it. Don't push us into it. Let us decide. We are the owners.

Kassia Binkowski
So what you're talking about is really fascinating. This this notion of you know, seducing fewer mothers, fewer women into motherhood is fascinating to me. Can you unpack that for us, look at the different ways that we're that society pushes us into motherhood? And are there places in the world where this isn't happening as much? Where the opportunity to deviate from that path is normalized?

Orna Donath
So first of all, there are many ways to seduce us into it. One of them is to promise to every one of us that it will be the best thing that will ever happen to us. And that's not I will not say it's a lie, but it's a half of the truth or it's uncertain.

Kassia Binkowski
I can assure you at 7am this morning, it was not the best thing that ever happened.

Orna Donath
So as our women's that for them, it's like continuous feeling. So we are being promised and nobody can promise that to us. That's first of all and the second of all, it's not only that we are being promised, is that the option of staying not mother non mothers staying because we came into the world, non mothers, and we can live 20, 30 years, 40 years without being mothers and we can have quite good lives without being mothers. So the possibility to stay non mothers is being stained. The option to stay non mother is still being stigmatized. It's, and that's, it's, that's not a true liberty to decide. And I think that, at least up to now, I don't know any society that does not seduce women into motherhood in one way or another first because countries need high childbirth. And second, because in all of the societies, at least that I know, womanhood is deeply connected into motherhood.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Because this is kind of a foreign concept to us. It's, we're trying to attach some kind of logical justification. Whereas what Orna is saying, is that across any geography across all socio-economic or life circumstances or support systems or whatever, in the same way, that there are women who love being mothers, there are women who don't, period. And that's kind of the crux of this conversation is the unintentional judgments that may come from us in trying to attach a logical reason, right? It's not a productive way of furthering this discussion. Because, frankly, what she's saying, and part of her research and or I would love to hear from you about this is that there's not always that kind of, here's the big shining reason that now everyone will understand.

Orna Donath
Exactly. I'm trying, in my study to point the look to another direction, and that society will ask itself, why do we assume that each and every one who is considered to be a female, must love dig, enjoy being a mother - this is what I'm asking. And I also wrote it in my study, that my study, of course, it's about regretting motherhood, but my study is like a mirror. Many people are relating to it as a window. Like, let's come to the window and look at the this freak show. I'm saying like, it's a kind of quite a way to say but like a kind of an emotional freak show of women. Let's look through the window and I'm saying this window is a mirror. We must look at a society about our conceptions, about motherhood, womanhood. Feminism, a lot of a lot of issues can be brought up into discussion. When we are talking about regretting mothers, and I, and I'm saying, I didn't, I didn't go this way. My studies not like not such a psychological, I'm not trying to analyze their personalities. It's a political study.

Kassia Binkowski
So if if the observation that womanhood is so intrinsically tied to motherhood, and that's, that's at the crux of this stigma that these women experience - either women like yourself who chose never to have children or women who regret having children - if that tie is kind of at the crux of this do you speculate that, do you think that that will change at all, as societies broaden our definitions of what families look like, as we see more families with two fathers or two mothers or as we see non binary individuals carry pregnancies? Does that start to change that to kind of like weaken that tie at all?

Orna Donath
I guess.

Kassia Binkowski
for the better?

Orna Donath
Time will tell if for the better, I'm always like, skeptical about what I'm looking from a side what is going on? I'm not the one who is first to like to cheer to cheer and glow from what is happening. But things are changing. And I think that many women are not are now saying not at all costs is not in any price. I will be a mother. And that's a big thing.

Sabrina Merage Naim
What about fathers? Have there been any studies about if fathers regret fatherhood and if so, is the stigma the same for them?

Orna Donath
I interview over 10 men in Israel, 10 Israeli men, Jewish Israeli men who regret becoming fathers, I didn't write about it because it was it was already wide enough. But I did talk to them. You know, it's not a statistical study or something like that. So I'm just mentioning effect that eight out of these 10 men didn't want to be fathers from the outset. They didn't want to be fathers. And they became fathers because they were in a relationship with a woman who wanted to be a mother, and they didn't want to break up with her. So they went after her with her willingness to be a mother. Some of them are now divorced and regretting becoming fathers. And so eight out of 10 for themselves didn't even want to be fathers. I guess I didn't, I didn't study further than that. But I guess that they will not be slandered as women are.

Kassia Binkowski
Well, it makes sense. It's not so intrinsically tied to their definition of manhood.

Orna Donath
Yeah, yeah, fatherhood is not related as womanhood and motherhood, if they will not become fathers, they will not come they will not be considered as less men. They will be considered as not, sometimes not, not mature. Like, running from responsibilities. I guess people will say that about them, but not questioning their masculinity, their manhood.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, it's interesting. I think people would jump to say, "Oh, you're a bad mother. You're an irresponsible woman. There's something wrong biologically." You know, whatever. But I don't. My instinct is that they don't probably say the same things about men.

Orna Donath
Yeah, men have the permission to take so many time outs from family and brotherhood. And women. They're, they're being expected to to stay put.

Kassia Binkowski
So I'm curious about your, you know, personal and professional opinion, how do we create the change that you want for women, which is to give them the space to make that decision to make that decision intentionally to not be, you know, forced down this pathway of motherhood? Where are the points in your life where you you wish something had unfolded differently, where you wish you wouldn't have been subjected to the stigma? Or you, you know, acutely felt it? What how do we change that as a society? What does that actually look like?

Orna Donath
I'm talking like we are talking right now, it will take time, I'm not even sure I will see the change in my lifetime, that a true change in my lifetime. But there is no other when way then talking about it. wherever we can. I also during the last six years, moderating groups for women here in Israel, who are uncertain whether they want to be mothers or not. Because women who do no have no problem, they are being hugged by society, and with their women who know that they don't want to be mothers, they are not hugged by society, but at least they know something that might give them some serenity, like quiet. But so many women are uncertain. And they have so like, quite heavy noise, that they can't ask themselves, what do they want? So I'm moderating my fear. I'm moderating a group for women who are uncertain. And we meet for 10 weeks. And we just talk about the uncertainty. So I think we should be creative in creating places so women will have the opportunity to know themselves better. And I'm thinking to know themselves better. Also, for the cases, the cases that they will decide to become mothers later on. That's great. So they will become mothers, but they went all all the way to to understand and what they truly want. So I think one of the ways is to create spaces where women will have the opportunity Time to investigate and to talk about it with one another to hear other women.

Kassia Binkowski
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