Poetry, Misogyny, and Women’s Unpaid Labor

Kate Baer Transcript

Kassia Binkowski
Hello, hello, Sabrina!

Sabrina Merage Naim
Hello Kassia!

Kassia Binkowski
I got to speak with the lovely poet, and New York Times best selling author, Kate Bear, recently and can't wait for everyone to hear this episode.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Ooh, tell me everything.

Kassia Binkowski
So Kate is a mother of four. She has been a writer her entire life, and yet her first book was published only two years ago. It was her first paid piece of writing. And it is all about womanhood. And it's a collection of poems. So it's really short, really accessible, and completely gorgeous pieces of work about womanhood, and motherhood, and the misogyny that kind of underscores all of it.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I love when artists use their craft to be activists, to tell a story about real life. I think it's so important, good on her.

Kassia Binkowski
And it's super real. I mean, she does not shy away from the good, the bad, the ugly, that is motherhood and all of its messiness. And she sources beautiful inspiration from those experiences. I mean, she talks about depression, she talks about sexism, she talks about birthing children, she talks about how we so honor and celebrate pregnancy, and then a pregnancy ends and you're expected to go back to being a cute little buttoned-up, perfectly healed, healthy, beautiful woman, and how none of that is true to our experience.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, super unrealistic. And you know that I'm the kind of person who wants to tell the whole truth, right?

Kassia Binkowski
All the things...

Sabrina Merage Naim
All the things. You come to me when you want to know the whole messy truth. And I love that Kate is also telling, you know, exposing, the reality of our experiences, because it's not always buttoned up and so pretty. And we need to know we need to celebrate the mess.

Kassia Binkowski
And she does that, she holds nothing back. She launched this book, she published it, it shot to the top of New York Times bestseller lists. And despite the fact that it was so well received, she of course, as a very proud bold feminist received a lot of criticism, and it started to trickle in via social media. And her second book is a book of erasure poems where she takes pieces of text -- some of those were criticisms that she received on social media, some of those are court transcripts, some of those are public speeches -- and she starts to erase different words to write her own piece of poetry in response, and it is mind blowing.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Wow, that sounds so fascinating. Kassia, tell the people what these books are called.

Kassia Binkowski
So we've got "What Kind of Woman" is her first and "I Hope This Finds You Well" is her second, her third book, as we find out is actually due this year, and she was generous enough to share a brand new poem from that collection with us today. Now, before we start the episode, Sabrina, I had a real fan girl moment with Kate and I asked her to read two of the poems that I think best set the stage for this conversation. Hopefully this provides a little bit of color and context for those of you who don't know her work. Take a listen.

Kate Baer
I can no longer participate in world breastfeeding week. Memes about tired mothers, nursery dressed in Millennial pink. I cannot discuss potty training, sleep schedules and noise machines, how to fix a 30 minute meal and keep our children healthy. I cannot take one more minute of conversation on strollers or video games, your mother's cruel suggestions, what so and so says is her trick for making time for daddy. No, I did not, will not, could not know what it is to be a good mother when Mother is already heavy enough.

Kassia Binkowski
Kate, thank you so much for joining us today.

Kate Baer
Thank you so much for having me. I'm honored to be here.

Kassia Binkowski
Well, we're thrilled to have you. Reading your work is like standing in an echo chamber of my heart and clearly 1000s of other readers. So first and foremost, before we even dive in, thank you for doing what you do and for putting these words down for all of us.

Kate Baer
Oh my gosh, you're welcome. And thanks for reading.

Kassia Binkowski
No, it's truly an honor to get to have this conversation. So I'm curious, was this the body of work that was kind of always bubbling up inside of you? Do you feel like this was something that you needed to birth for a while or did this feminist voice, was there a moment that you can point to in, in marriage or in motherhood, that was kind of the catalyst for these stories, this work?

Yeah, I think both of those things are true. You know, I was writing kind of around these topics for maybe a decade, and just kind of saying everything but. And yeah, it always feels kind of cliche to say this, but there was definitely a feeling of sitting down to write this book and feeling like everything I've ever felt is just kind of coming out now, not that writing a book is easy, and you just sit down and write it, of course not. But there was definitely a feeling of, here's everything I've ever felt, and I'm just gonna write it down. I was also kind of pushed over the edge in many ways. In my personal life, I recently had an unplanned pregnancy, a very undesired pregnancy, which resulted in a beautiful child, but the process of that was... You know, I was already drowning with three. And that was just like handing me a bag of bricks to sink even further down. And so I was basically clawing my way out of that, both depression and just clawing my way out of the feeling like not myself, and so that was also contributing to this book.

Kassia Binkowski
Well, you've already touched on something that nobody is doing, which is talking about depression, which is talking about the loneliness of motherhood, which is talking about the fact that a very unwanted pregnancy can result in a very loved and welcomed child, right? These are all these things that we just don't air and that we're expected to carry, you know, on our own. I mean, I'm a mother of three and I can't imagine right now being surprised by a fourth and the weight of that, you know, and how overwhelming that would be. I wonder if there isn't, you know- I guess the first question is, was it cathartic in some way to put this all out on paper for you?

Yeah, for sure. There was some catharsis, although writing in general, is kind of layered. You know, writing it down is maybe cathartic at times, but then the process of editing and having other people read it doesn't quite feel the same way. I wouldn't use cathartic as the word to describe that. Yeah.

Kassia Binkowski
Fair. Well, and I mean, look at it's easy to look at Instagram, and look at your account and look at, you know, hundreds of others and see a polished, beautiful version, and that's not what writing is, that's not what most women's work is. It's ugly, and it's hard and it's effortful. And I mean, you've told stories about the Panera parking lot and stealing away the moments and how hard it is to scrape together the time to produce a body of work like this.

Kate Baer
Yeah, I think there's just a lot we assume about other people on the internet. It's a very simplistic way of kind of describing the internet in general, we miss a lot of nuance, just in so many ways. And one of those ways is looking at other people in our fields, and thinking, "look at them, look at all of what they're accomplishing." But you're not seeing like 10 years of projection and failed books, and it's just something I try to remember too, because I struggle with those feelings. I'm looking at people who are doing all sorts of wonderful, great things and thinking, "it's just falling into their lap," when I know that's not true. That's not true at all.

Kassia Binkowski
Yeah, no, it makes it easy to think. Did you ever buy into the belief that, you know, a real writer couldn't write about motherhood, couldn't write about the the mess that is motherhood, that these were kind of separate things? Did you ever battle with that kind of misogyny, that internalized misogyny?

Yeah, for sure. I spent a few years... Every time I talk about time, ever since COVID, I can't remember how long things were.

Kassia Binkowski
We're living in a time warp.

Kate Baer
Yeah, could have been ten years, it could have been five years. But I spent time writing my own blog or writing pieces for Huffington Post on motherhood and then just quit, because I felt like I wasn't being taken seriously. I kept being called a "mommy blogger" and a "mommy writer", which really made me feel like I wasn't a serious writer. And so I kind of quit writing about those things so that I would be taken seriously. And only now am I realizing well I was just digging my heels further into that belief, I was internalizing that misogyny and basically perpetuating it myself. When really, you know, there's nothing inherently un-writerly about motherhood, motherhood is such a universal experience. Everyone has a mother for better or worse, and you know, I've said this many times, but you know, how many coming of age stories have we read about baseball that we're all expected to read, when that is certainly not a universal experience, but somehow declared worthy, and yeah, it's taken time, definitely taken time to learn that.

Kassia Binkowski
When did you have the courage to just say, "fuck it, I'm doing it anyway," and go back to that line of work?

Kate Baer
I was working on a novel and started cheating on it with poetry and the themes of motherhood just came up organically, and I just slid into it. You know, I think a lot of writers try to write about different things, but ended up circling the same drain. And so I guess my own experiences, as a mother and as a woman are my drain and so I couldn't avoid it any longer.

Kassia Binkowski
Well I think of Elizabeth Gilbert has this piece where she talks about the creative process being like this spirit that kind of moves through you that when it strikes, you're, you know, scrambling to catch it, because it's the work that you need to do, it's the topic that you need to cover, it's the body of work you have to produce, whatever it is, or it's going to leave, it's going to be gone. And so what you're saying about you know, circling the drain and coming back to the same topic that you need to tackle, that you need to work through, that you need to produce really resonates.

Kate Baer
You are not an evergreen, unchanged by the pitiless snow. You are not a photo, a brand, a character written for sex or house or show. You do not have to choose one or the other: a dream or a dreamer, the bird or the birder. You may be a woman of commotion and quiet. Magic and brain. You can be a mother and a poet. A wife and a lover. You can dance on the graves you dug on Tuesday, pulling out the bones of yourself you began to miss. You can be the sun and the moon. The dance is a victory song.

Kassia Binkowski
I think one of your many talents is giving words, really beautiful and honest and sometimes simple and accessible and approachable words, to that experience of marriage and womanhood and motherhood in a way that really resonates, even when it's really messy and really lonely, and you don't try to look at it through any sort of rose colored glasses. And I think back to my insecurity having newborn twins, and how I felt like I was drowning 100% of the time, and just barely trying to keep my head above surface, but mostly, you know, taking down water. And I think back, you know, those are scars that I wear. I wasn't able to polish those and put that out into the world in a way that would resonate with others. And I just admire so much that you've managed to turn those experiences into such beautiful, beautiful art. What were some of your lonelier moments that you feel like were really catalysts for some of these poems? And why I guess, did you feel a need to document and own and publicize them so broadly?

Kate Baer
That's a great question. I think some of that is hard to name because it isn't a specific, one time I'm feeling overwhelmed and I feel like I don't have help and, you know, my spouse and I are fighting. To me, it's more of this general feeling of being undervalued, especially, you know, the pandemic really shed light on how much you know, unpaid labor, women are doing on a daily basis, even with partners who are super helpful and equal, you know, we're still getting paid less. And we're still often the ones getting the brunt of, you know, emotional labor, domestic labor. And I don't know, I think just the feeling of- I got to a point where I was kind of walking around my house been like, "What am I doing? I'm killing myself here to try to meet everybody's needs, but what about my needs?" And I don't know, it's hard to put into words even though you're saying I'm so great at putting these things into words. It really is just a feeling of rage and feeling being so lost in what I'm supposed to be doing here. Yeah, of course, I need to contribute to the household and help take care of my kids but feeling so lost in my identity was definitely part of this, and feeling like all this work that I'm doing is so unseen, and not talked about. We talked about some of that difficult work in motherhood, like how hard it is to bring a baby home from the hospital and learn to breastfeed. That's hard, we talk about that. But what about, you know, six months later when the baby is having a hard time sleeping through the night and you're kind of thinking about getting back into your career and your husband is kind of checked out at work. He also feels checked out at home and your sex life is kind of on the brink, like not really great. It's those subtle moments that I think, really build up over time, and there's no easy answer to that, except maybe to talk about it and to realize, you know, this is a very difficult thing to do to try to be a woman, and try to be a mother, and try to be a person, and a friend, and a daughter, and a sister. To me, it's just the small things adding up over time.

Kassia Binkowski
And I think that cuts straight to the heart of why this resonates so deeply is the fact that you're talking about and kind of giving shape and space to these experiences that otherwise, you know, get brushed past and survived on a daily basis without ever acknowledging and honoring and airing them. Because you're right, I mean, motherhood and marriage, both are made up of, you know, 1000s, and millions of mundane moments, some of which are beautiful, and some of which are harrowing, and everything in between, you know, but you're talking about them. Do you feel like now that you've put this body of work into the world, you know, you've had amazing media coverage, granted in COVID times and awkwardly, you know, behind the screen, but do you feel like you have tapped into places where these stories are being told and these conversations are being had? Do you feel like by being the face of this book, you have been granted access to places where conversations are being had that you weren't otherwise aware of? Does that make sense?

Kate Baer
Yeah.

Kassia Binkowski
I wonder if there are corners of the world where people are talking about this that we just aren't tapped into, that aren't reaching us.

Kate Baer
I think these conversations are being tapped into between women, between female friendship, which is something I do love to celebrate. That is where I find so much richness, and hope, and faith, and support in my own female friendships. And I've had many people reach out to me and say, "my friends and I were just talking about this," and "oh, I was talking to my girlfriend's and we were reading this poem, and we were talking about how true that is." So to me, or for me, it's mostly just been about people reaching out to me and talking about how they felt seen, and they felt heard, and they were, you know, kind of connecting with other women but they would have anyway, on these topics, which it's just the oldest and most truest form of love in my opinion, is those relationships between women, and, you know, the support found there.

Kassia Binkowski
No, I mean, I think you're exactly right. They're some of the most sacred relationships in my life. I think I look at my mother's life and, you know, the group of eight women that she's had forever through thick and thin, and the hours they've spent together walking, and drinking wine, and raising children, and surviving marriages. And, you know, I look at that I'm like, "that is everything that I want, right?" I joke with my sisters and my mother's girlfriends' daughters who I'm close with like sisters, and I'm like, "that's what we want, right?" When all else fades away, those women beside us in our life, that's it, that's, you know, the unicorn.

Kassia Binkowski
So both of your books so far have shot to the top of New York Times bestseller lists, both have been so widely applauded, but that second book never would have come to be had that been the only feedback you were getting, right? So tell us about kind of your presence on social media and the responses that you were starting to get once "What Kind of Woman" was out in the world?

Kate Baer
Yeah, so I think my kind of MO for nasty messages or spam in the last decade has been just a quick block or delete, you know, there's not much good that can come from dialoguing on the internet, in my opinion. But then around when George Floyd was horrifically murdered, I was kind of posting about police reform and I was looking through and I was getting a bunch of messages about this, kind of arguing with me, which was very expected. It's not like that as abnormal for that kind of thing to happen. So I was kind of like looking at them and deleting them, kind of clearing out my inbox and I had a message for a woman who was pretty upset with me and as I was reading it, the words kind of stuck out to me in a new way. So on a whim, I took a screenshot and hid her identity and erased some of the words and posted it, and it really connected with a lot of people, which I think just proves there are a lot of folks who are at odds with other people on the internet or at odds with people they actually know, and even more with people they actually know. And it really connected with people and I started to see poems pop out of everywhere: my kids' vocab sheets, and billboards, and my emails, my spam email, I started to see poetry in all those places. And this book kind of was born from that, although I will admit that when Harper asked me to write this book, I said, "no," and actually said, "no," three or four times.

Kassia Binkowski
I was gonna say, you said, "no," a bunch.

Kate Baer
It felt really depressing and it was already such a difficult time. As you know, my kids were home from school, they couldn't go to school, because of COVID, and I felt like "how am I going to be looking at all these messages and delving into this kind of dark internet situation while, you know, I'm also kind of dark in my house?" So yeah, it was a difficult decision. Now, on the other side of that it obviously is much easier to digest now, but at the time it felt, you know, kind of heavy.

Kassia Binkowski
So we're talking about, for our audience, your second New York Times bestseller, which is called "I Hope This Finds You Well" and it's a collection of these erasure poems where you essentially are redacting parts of an existing body of work. So whether it again, email or direct message or something else, and identifying the words that turn it into your own your own piece, your own poem. And it's incredibly powerful and it's actually fascinating to hear you say that the very first one was was from a woman because I feel like I read a lot of those and assume that they're critical men, you know, who are not feminist and who have no problem, you know, batting down women and putting us into boxes, and who are reacting strongly. So I actually love that you called out that first one, and part of the inspiration from this came from, you know, the feedback from a woman. How did you cope? And what was the final tipping point for you to say, "yeah, I am gonna dive into this really heavy thing, during this really dark time, during this very heavy moment and season of parenting." Why did you decide to do it? And what are your coping mechanisms look like?

Kate Baer
My agent talked me into it, and I don't think it was for the money, I really do think she was genuine in that, I don't know, she just kept saying, "I know this is hard, but there are so many people who are finding hope from your words from you taking what was so ugly, and finding such hope and joy in them. And there's been no other time that we've needed it more." And also, I needed to have some other words in there, not just messages to me, and so that was also kind of a negotiation. Well, I can't just have all these ugly messages to me what about, you know, court transcripts, or Donald Trump and also just positive messages, we really had to workshop some ideas about how to make this book a little more readable, because if it's just unkind messages from anonymous to me, it just felt way too heavy and ugly. And so I wanted to add some complexity and some depth to the book and so that also helped push it into production.

Kassia Binkowski
How has it been received? I mean, obviously, it's been widely applauded, we've talked about that. But what are some of the more poignant messages that you've heard, the responses that you've heard?

Kate Baer
Yeah, my favorite messages are from dads. Sounds weird. I've actually had a bunch of messages from dads being like, "wow, I have a daughter, I had no idea of all this garbage that's coming her way in the form of, you know, diet culture, spam emails, and gross sugar daddy men and also just people critiquing body" and I don't know, I think that has been really beautiful to me, just that realization. And also, I don't know, a dad taking the time to reach out to a photo on Instagram is kind of sweet to me.

Kassia Binkowski
It's awesome. I love it. I mean, you have a poem in your book, I'm gonna forget the name of it, but where you talk about the birthing of a father. And what maybe it's called "What kind of man", or maybe I'm confusing them. But it is beautiful and I've watched my own experience and my own marriage and my husband's own eyes been opened up to kind of the experience of women and what's coming our way with our daughter and watch because of our daughter, right? Raising a girl has opened his eyes more so than marrying a woman ever did. And he's, you know, far more sensitive to and aware of and willing to have conversations about all of these realities, because of our daughter. What's it been like in your own home?

Kate Baer
Yeah, I do think having a daughter is beneficial. Although I don't appreciate when use having a daughter as a scapegoat for their own opinions. There are times when people are like, "well I have a daughter and so now I'm going to care about reproductive rights." You know, you should care about reproductive rights no matter what. And so I do push back against my husband sometimes in those instances, because whether or not he has a daughter, he should really be for the for the benefit of society, women, humankind, to have, you know, equality and safety. I, of course, biologically, it's very moving and beautiful, watching his relationship with- we have four kids, but we have only have one daughter. That is so beautiful. But I hope that even if we didn't have her that he would be trying his very hardest to understand, you know, what it means to be a woman in the world today, what it meant to be a woman in the world hundreds of years ago, when we had so much less access to safety and health. And yeah, I hope that makes sense. Yeah, it's great that he cares about what's happened to my daughter, I hope he cares what happens to everybody's daughter. I don't know, I think canceled culture, to me, in my opinion, has been supremely unhelpful in the redemption of men. And so I certainly do not want to constantly cancel him in these miniature ways in my house, when he kind of misspeaks or doesn't understand. There's no room for redemption in there. But just like I hope he constantly challenges my growth in areas, I try to constantly challenge him when it comes to our ideas of what women should sound like, or look like, or be like, whether he has a daughter or not.

Kassia Binkowski
I love that. Obviously yes, yes, yes, yes, I want and hope that my husband, you know, is rooting for the equality and working towards the equality (and every man not just my husband, right) but is working towards the equality of women. I have mostly celebrated and held up the fact that having a daughter has been a great, I shouldn't say catalyst because in his defense, I don't think he's done things radically differently after having a daughter than before, but I think everything has hit closer to home because of that, and I've mostly celebrated that and applauded it. And what you're saying makes me wonder if, you know, the bar should just be higher. Like if it shouldn't be a scapegoat at all. And you're absolutely right, you're not wrong about that.

Kate Baer
Yeah, I don't know what else to say...

Kassia Binkowski
Fair, and maybe there isn't more to say and stop the bar needs to be higher. I get it

Kassia Binkowski
Speaking of your own marriage, your own household, how has it been shaped by this experience, by birthing these two books by, you know, so publicly owning this really feminist voice? In kind of what ways have have your own home and your own relationships evolved as a result?

Kate Baer
I think it's true that nothing's changed, and everything's changed, if that makes sense. I'm still the same person, I'm still back on my own bullshit on things, and so is he, and so are our kids, and so are all my relationships. I think the biggest change has been money. And by that I don't mean now I'm flush with cash. What I mean is, this is the first time I'm being paid to write which means every penny I've made from "What Kind of Woman" has been going to childcare to pay for the next book. There is no capital there. And I'm not complaining, it's more the transparency, I think is pretty important when we're talking about writing and motherhood. There is this idea that writers get: if you have a book on The New York Times bestseller list that now you're flush with cash. There's also just this perception that writing books is sustainable, when really... Go to med school, that's my advice for anyone who would like a consistent paycheck. Anyway, but I do want to say that now that I'm being paid to write, which I never was before, I had a lot of side hustles to pay for childcare to write, that has helped, that has definitely helped my marriage in that it feels much more equal. Because I'm working, he's working or paying for childcare. That really helped just in the logistics of, of our relationship and in the house, if that makes sense.

Kassia Binkowski
Yeah, of course it does. And let's talk about childcare for a second, because you've been, you know, you clearly believe very strongly in the transparency around this topic and airing the fact that this work is only possible because you have help at home. And I think there's so much desire to glorify and celebrate the woman who can do it all, and that's just not true. It's not most of our realities. You know, I can run a business because I have childcare, full stop. It would not work to do this job, you know, behind the bathroom door and stolen moments of the day during naptime. I'm doing it then also, but I'm doing it because I have childcare. And it's just crushing to me that that isn't available more widely. It's heartbreaking.

Kate Baer
Yeah, I would say this is the number one theme of my conversation, you know that so much of the heartache, and stress of so many mothers in my own life is childcare, and figuring that out, both the logistics of that financially and schedule wise, but also the guilt that comes along with it, and what we feel like we should be doing with our kids versus what is actually going to make us the happiest, not the happiest, but the most functional kind of family. To me it is not functional to have one parent who works and then the other one who wants to work, but is just struggling to find childcare and is just depressed all the time and feeling overworked and overrun. You know, that's not functional to me, and that's what I see so often. And I think the answer usually is consistent and reliable childcare, which so many people don't have access to. And why I like to be transparent about money, you know, I would have loved to have four full days of childcare, a week to write, you know, 10 years ago, but I had none of the money to do that. And so, you know, I just think it's an important topic of conversation, the privilege to have childcare and how to make that work. And obviously, the pandemic has brought to light so many of the gaps in our system.

Kassia Binkowski
One, I think, from my own experience and the amount of mental space, that even with childcare, the amount of my mental capacity that goes to managing that, the finances, the schedule, the juggle, the handoff, the "when are my windows", the inconsistency... It can be all-consuming, despite the fact that I have the tremendous privilege to have access to it, to be able to afford it, you know, and it's still kind of a lens that I walk through my life with, right? I still am operating at limited capacity, because so much of my capacity goes there, to managing that. And it's interesting, you said, you know, it's a it's a critical part of being a happy and then you took that back and you said actually to being a functional household. And that's true, but also can it just be okay that it's a critical part of a happy household? Can't we just acknowledge that I don't want to be a full time stay at home mom, I don't want that and I wouldn't be good at it. You know, my kids are getting a better experience because I am out working some of the time and can come back to them and be on some of the time and that's a tremendous, tremendous privilege. And it shouldn't be, full stop. It just shouldn't be.

Kate Baer
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. The reason I took back happy is because sometimes when happy is the end goal, it's kind of setting yourself up for failure because even when childcare is there, sometimes there's other things that are preventing you from being happy, like mental health, but for me, my mental health is so impacted by childcare, so I am much happier, personally, when my childcare is set for that week, so yeah.

Kassia Binkowski
With regards to your children, I want to ask, you know, you've made such an impression on social media and have such a following there, especially after these two books have been published, and it's, you know, an easy place to find authors, and to celebrate their work, and to share their work, and to spread it, and yet, you've done all of that without really having your kids on social media at all, or in your feed at all. I think there's maybe two pictures total, and I don't doubt for one second, that that is an incredibly intentional choice. How do you navigate the, I think, what is for everybody a very sticky relationship with social media, and I couldn't agree with you more, about how ugly and toxic it can be, and I think most of us are coming around to see that. What are your boundaries in your own home? How are you going to navigate that with your children? I'm just curious to kind of pull back the curtains a little bit on some of those decisions.

Kate Baer
I don't have my kids on social media, but I do want to say that I don't care what other people do. This topic's brought up to me a lot. And I hesitate. I have friends who have public profiles that have their kids everywhere and I don't doubt that they're wonderful mothers, I don't doubt that they are making the best decision for their family. What's best for my family is to not have my kids on social media, it's actually, to be quite honest, a choice that is honestly convenient for me. It makes it very convenient to just have a black and white, they're just not on there. So then I'm not constantly making these little decisions. Is this okay? Are they going to care about this three years from now? You know, and it's also, if I was having a baby now, oh my gosh, God forbid, for the first time, maybe I would think differently. But I have a 10 year old now, I know the lifespan of what is cute on the internet. And it's just a lot easier to not post your 10 year old's smelly feet, you know, so to me, it's just convenience, it's ease, its safety. There's a lot of things going into that. I don't care what other people do, but for me, it's just easier to keep them off of social media, just for so many different reasons. And, you know, my hope would be that they wouldn't have social media until they're 18, just because I think that would also make it easier for them. Now, of course, I have no idea what it's like to have a teenager. And as we all know, making parenting proclamations before you get to a stage is just a recipe for disaster. So I don't want to say that that's going to happen. But in my mind, I would love for them to just stay off of it themselves. Just because gosh, go see people face to face, you know, I don't want them living through a screen. But, you know, I have no idea what the world's gonna look like in, you know, six years when my son is driving and wants to have, you know, a life of his own away from his mom and her boundary. So, yeah, it's been easy for me to keep them off.

Kassia Binkowski
I'm curious what some of the other ways that, you know, the really feminist values that are articulated in the book and brought to life, what other ways are those showing up in your parenting? You know, it's easy to ask about, "how are you going to raise your daughter so that her experience is different than yours?" Or so she feels stronger or more sheltered from, or whatever whatever the desire may be. But it's also about your sons, too, right? I have a daughter and two sons and it's, how am I bringing all of those values to the table in the subtle ways that I'm parenting them? And I'm wondering how it's showing up for you. Your kids are a little bit older than mine, but in what ways are you making decisions differently than you experienced maybe during childhood or in direct response to your experiences, to give your children a different lens on the world?

Kate Baer
I mean, like I said, it's really easy for us to talk about all the ways we want to parent. Like I want to be, you know, sex positive, I want to keep our house open and honest. But you know, when it comes down to those actual literal conversations, it's so much harder.

Kassia Binkowski
It's so much messier. And so much more imperfect.

Kate Baer
So much messier, so awkward, and I'm trying to talk to my son about sex the other day, like "do you have any questions? And I'm sure you're hearing all sorts of stuff at recess," and I was talking to him about same-sex relationships and how, you know, we live in an area where that's not always accepted, and how I don't care and, I didn't say it like that, but you know, how there's all sorts of ways to love and who were attracted to it's such a spectrum and it could change and it doesn't matter to me, you know, any kind of weird feeling you ever had that may feel weird to you is probably not weird at all. And just "I just want you to talk to me," and he's just like, "Mom, get out of room." You know, he doesn't want to have this conversation at all. You know, when I pictured this conversation 10 years ago when I'm pregnant with him and a first time mom, I'm picturing this, these beautiful conversations where we'll sit around and talk about our feelings, and we'll talk about how we accept everyone. And instead, he's just like, "Get out of my room. You're disgusting." He doesn't want to think about sex with his mom and talk about this. And so, yeah, it's messy.

Kassia Binkowski
I love that, because it's so easy to paint this, like you said, even us as mothers with our own children, we assume it will go you know, in this way, in this vein, and it doesn't, and it's awkward, and we stumble, and I love hearing that even the most eloquent poet is stumbling over her words and tripping over these conversations and figuring out how to navigate this, because it's awkward.

Kate Baer
Yeah, and it is awkward. And it was cute when he was five and asking this and saying "fagina" instead of "vagina," and we were having these kind of silly conversations about sperm and egg, and it's much harder when they're 10. You know, and I can only imagine it's going to get more difficult. And so I just think it's easy to talk a lot of big game about how we're going to be with our children, when really it's just a daily exercise and kind of messing it up and trying to right our wrongs and try to love them and try to love ourselves and just not be an idiot. Parenthood does not get any easier. So I have no answers on this topic. I just do my best.

Sabrina Merage Naim
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