Reproductive Rights, Overturning Roe, and Sesame Street

Kathryn Kolbert & Julie Kay Transcript

Sabrina Merage Naim
Hi, K!

Kassia Binkowski
Hello, how are you?

Sabrina Merage Naim
I'm so excited to tell you about this conversation with Kitty Kolbert And Julie Kay, this is this is one of those that really got me revved up, like it got my juices flowing. After I got off with them. I was on a rampage for hours calling people telling them everything, it really got me going. And I think our audience is really going to be interested in this one, because it's so relevant. It's so timely, we're talking about our access to abortion in the United States. And clearly, that's an issue that we're facing, we're kind of looking down the barrel of a potential end to that. And it's super real. So we're talking to two human rights attorneys that have kind of been have dedicated their entire careers to this cause. And talking about the reality of what that means, like what is the history of the issue, but also, what does it mean if we no longer have that kind of access anymore, which is mind boggling to even consider.

Kassia Binkowski
It's honestly really, really hard for me to wrap my head around. I mean, it's it's not hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that that's a very likely outcome in the coming months. It's hard for me to imagine life without that freedom. Like I think I grew up in a generation where I absolutely took a little bit for granted, the fact that should I ever need or want access to an abortion it was, I was going to be able to find it. And it's pretty wild to think that that might be changing really quickly.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, that's right. And something that I have disclosed on this podcast before is that, you know, although you and I have have grown up in a generation where we've had that access, there have been many generations before us who did not have that access. And my great grandmother was a victim of a botched abortion and she died. So that kind of story lasts for multiple generations. It's something that really lights a fire under me because no woman should ever have to be put in that position, ever. It's really just ludicrous to me. So, I spoke with two real experts in this field. Katherine Kolbert, or Kitty as she, as she is called, is really one of the most influential public interest attorneys in the country. She has argued before the Supreme Court twice, most notably in 1992, where she made her second appearance, arguing Planned Parenthood V. Casey, which is a case that we will go into in our conversation, and is frankly widely credited for saving Roe v. Wade. And something that we need to know about that history is important. She also she has like a whole huge laundry list of a really robust career. She founded the Athena Center for Leadership at Barnard College, she co-founded the Center for Reproductive rights, like she's been very active, and she is a wealth of knowledge. And I also got to speak with Julie Kay, who is similarly a very passionate human rights attorney who actually came up through the Center for Reproductive Rights, in part under the mentorship of Kitty. And she's an expert on women's human rights domestically and internationally. She led the landmark case, ABC V. Ireland, another case that we'll talk about, it brings up some memories of the conversation we had with Ailbhe Smyth, last season in Ireland, and argued before the grand chamber before something like 17 judges from all over Europe,

Kassia Binkowski
Spoiler alert: while pregnant. That's insane.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Right. At the time, Ireland's ban on life saving abortion was violating her clients human rights. So she's successfully argued that case, super interesting. And now, they have gotten together to co-author the very timely and compelling book controlling women, what we must do now to save reproductive freedom. It is a guide to what we have to do now. We can't just sit back, we can't just take it. It's time for action. It's time for letting our voices be heard loud and clear. And it's a really compelling read. So I highly recommend it.

Kassia Binkowski
I mean, these two women are have done so much for so long, to protect reproductive freedom for women. And yet, from what I'm hearing from you, they're more fired up than ever. And it feels perhaps more critical than ever before, that women - women and men for that matter - that we step up, speak out, engage in this fight. What has shifted?What kind of what preview can you give us what has shifted for them to make this feel so especially urgent right now?

Sabrina Merage Naim
You know, we are, as Kitty says in our conversation, and actually something that she is known for saying, she, says "it's all about Sesame Street, it's all about learning to count." We are faced with a very conservative leaning Supreme Court. And it's not just that the majority of them are conservative it is that they are more conservative than they've ever been before. So we are now faced with the reality that the protective mechanism that we have had for 50 years will go away. And when that happens, at least a third, if not half of the states in this country will flip a switch, and abortion access will be gone. That is a reality that we are faced with that we need to understand the vast repercussions of the trickle down effect of what that means for other freedoms for women, and people. And other minorities. And it's scary. It's not just abortion, for abortion sake, it is real, you know what the book, what the books explains it's really about controlling women.

Kassia Binkowski
So I just I want to piggyback on that right now, Sabrina, because I do want to let our listeners know that for those of you interested in diving deeper into this topic, this conversation only scratches the surface, we are going to be rounding up a host of resources, articles, links, you know different perspectives on this issue and dropping them in your inbox. So if you're interested in diving deeper, if today's conversation lights a fire in you the same way it has under Sabrina, please be sure to follow the link via Instagram via our website and make sure you sign up for that newsletter because this is just the beginning. And as we'll hear, it sounds like the fight is on.

Sabrina Merage Naim
And take a listen!

Sabrina Merage Naim
I am so so excited to have this conversation with you Julie and Kitty. Thank you both so much for joining - Kitty from Philadelphia and Julie from New York. Thank you for being with me.

Kathryn Kolbert (Kitty)
We'r e thrilled to be here.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So just for some context for our audience, I actually had the pleasure of meeting Kitty and hearing her TED talk in person in Palm Springs in December at the TEDWomen conference. And I have to just say that, I think it was like your first line into the talk, you said Roe is going to be dead essentially within the year and there was an audible gasp in the audience. And I couldn't hear anything after. I was gutted. And for the entire day I didn't know what to do with myself. And that really was the reason why I felt like I needed to have this conversation with you. Because both of you have so much experience in this field. You have decades and landmark cases and Supreme Court and the European courts and and we're going to go into all of that. But I just wanted to give that context that this is kind of where we're starting the conversation is we can no longer rely on Roe to save us. So I want to kind of go back to how this particular issue of reproductive rights law became so personal to both of you that it kind of drew you above everything else, away from you know, other legal issues that this became the most important part of your careers. And Kitty, I'd like to start with you.

Kathryn Kolbert (Kitty)
Well, thanks, Sabrina. I'm thrilled to be here. And I am glad to hear that that was your reaction to the TED Talk. Because of course that was my point.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yes, I assumed so.

Kathryn Kolbert (Kitty)
Most Americans don't get it that we are going to lose Roe and we need to begin to think about other strategies. So I'm thrilled to be here. I started to get involved in this issue when I started to work at the Women's Law Project in Philadelphia. On my first day of work, I was called down to represent abortion clinics from the city before a hearing and City Council where they were trying to enact a law that required a variety of restrictions on abortion. At that time, all of those restrictions had been held unconstitutional. And we were easily able to defeat the bill. But as a result of my great victory on my first day, at work, I began to represent the clinics across Pennsylvania. And I did that for the next 20 years, and went to the Supreme Court twice with them. And began to represent clinics around the country as well. And part of my passion for this issue is that it strikes at the heart of women's autonomy and integrity and ability to make important decisions about their lives. And there's few decisions like this, that have so much impact in moment for, for women in this country.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, and I think that's a really important point that we'll be diving into. And we'll also hear more about one of those landmark Supreme Court cases that you argued. Give us some time context, when you talked about your first day at the Center - when what time period was this?

Kathryn Kolbert (Kitty)
That was in the fall of 1979. So a long time ago, only about six years after Roe had been handed down by the Supreme Court. And we be we began seeing in Pennsylvania and in states around the country, a wide range of efforts by opponents of abortion to restricts women's access, and it only got worse from there on.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah. And Julie, your role in this was also kind of based on the path that Kitty laid out. So talk about how you became so entrenched in this issue.

Julie Kay
Yeah, well, thank you, Sabrina. It's lovely to be here. I am part of the generation that kind of graduated from nursery school just as Roe v. Wade became law. So I knew nothing else. As I was growing up and was very interested in gender studies I was part of the first class of Women's Studies majors as an undergrad at Harvard and was quite controversial at that point. So I decided I would also be a social studies major because Women's Studies was considered something very new and unknown. But it really taught me to think critically and look critically at gender issues. The Handmaid's Tale had just come out, I was class in 1990. And I was really looking at I started working in some domestic violence shelters nearby and looking more and more gender rights and the issue of abortion rights really struck me as one that was, really there was a lot of hypocrisy going on in when people were saying why it was so important to stop abortion. And I think, to me very early on, it was about control and sexuality and defining who we valued having babies and when and how, and this sort of stigmatization of some women having babies and the pedestal that other women and white women in particular were placed on. So it made a lot of sense to me as an issue. I left college and worked in a childcare advocacy organization, which I was kind of disappointed at first, because I wanted to work on women's rights. And I very quickly saw that childcare and caregiving are so fundamental to women's ability to participate fully in society, and went to law school because I thought law was the way forward and that things would happen more quickly. Turns out, that's not exactly the case. But I do like being a lawyer and worked my way over to the Center for Reproductive Rights, which had only been a center for about a year at that point and had an excellent fellowship program. I was trained really well by Kitty and others at the Center in how to just think proactively and aggressively about advancing reproductive rights and freedom and why that mattered, and really, what were some of the underlying issues around why abortion is seen as such a litmus test around one's gender rights and human rights conversations.

Sabrina Merage Naim
It's interesting that you say following the path of being an a lawyer actually didn't make the change that you were hoping for, given that both of you were actually so fundamental in really important changes. And we're going to go into that, but you mentioned the Center for Reproductive rights. Kitty, please talk a little bit about what that is when it was founded and why.

Kathryn Kolbert (Kitty)
So Sabrina, the Center was founded in 1992. The same year that Planned Parenthood versus Casey was argued in the Supreme Court. I was working at the ACLU reproductive freedom project in '92. A group of us from the project led by Janet Benshoof and a variety of other of us left together to form the Center for Reproductive rights. And we did that for a variety of reasons, mostly because we wanted to do work around the world. And because we wanted to broaden the amount of litigation we could do grow faster and larger than we were able to do with the ACLU. And it was a real honor to found the Center. I was the first vice president, head of all domestic programs, including litigation and advocacy there. And I was there for about 10 years. So it was a great experience. And clearly, the organization has grown considerably since both Janet and I left and is really a leading provider of abortion litigation services around the world today. So they're doing a great job.

Sabrina Merage Naim
And Julie, you mentioned that Kitty was like a mentor to you and and being part of the Center for Reproductive Rights kind of paved the path for your future career as well. What did that mean to you moving forward?

Well, I mean, the Center was and is it's very just energetic, uncompromising in the best sense of really strongly protecting reproductive freedom and rights. There was a domestic department and international department. So there was also a lot of conversation around how do we use human rights internationally, I had that chance to go to Ireland, I was working at the center and sort of leapt at the opportunity to move to Ireland with what was supposed to be a short stay and ended up being a lot longer. But I really brought the litigation training and viewpoint that I learned at the Center both as far as you know, you'd sort of be handed a research assignment until well, how do I get to more expansive rights, don't tell me what the barriers are. But tell me how to get over them, how to leap over them, and how to really use existing law to think expansively as well as just some really good training and how to be a litigator. I mean, I will not make Kitty blush on a podcast because nobody would be able to see it, but there was just a lot of brainpower there and a lot of investment in the next generation of lawyers. And so when I went to Ireland, I had that training and that perspective, as well as all of a sudden sort of opened up this door of human rights law that was very tangible, accepted. There were there were tools for implementing human rights treaties and norms that just didn't exist in the United States. So that was a really exciting part of it for me as well.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I want to rewind the clock a little bit because we need a little bit of a history lesson. So Kitty, you argued in front of the Supreme Court twice for this issue. One was in 1985, Thornburgh V American College of Obstetrics and Gynecologists, and then again in 1992, for Planned Parenthood versus Casey, which is what I'd like to talk about. Summarize - I know, it's so complicated, I mean in your book there's like chapters on this issue and what actually happened - but if you can summarize for us what happened in Planned Parenthood V. Casey.

Kathryn Kolbert (Kitty)
Alright, so let me just set the stage, which is in 1986 in my case, in a Thornburgh, the court by a five to four vote, reaffirmed Roe vs. Wade. But the justice department at that time that was controlled by the Reagan administration had come out and supported the overruling of Roe. And in 1992, following the Anita Hill hearings, which many people will remember, Justice Thomas ascended to the Supreme Court. And with in a day or two of his nomination being confirmed the Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit issued their opinion, finding that Roe vs. Wade, its most protective standard of review, meaning the constitutional protection it offered to women, the highest level was no longer the law. And we were faced with the question of whether to appeal the case to the Supreme Court. So the important factor here is that Justice Thomas ascended to the court and I say repeatedly that arguing before the Supreme Court is a lot like Sesame Street, you got to learn to count and the only number that matters is five. With justice Thomas's ascension to the High Court, there were five votes to overrule Roe. And we were convinced at the time that that is what was going to happen. Now, it didn't. I am thankful that it didn't, it did open the door to additional regulation of abortion, and making it much more difficult for for some women - including women of color, poor women, young women, or women who live in rural areas - to obtain abortion services. But the basic framework of Roe that is that you have a right to a legal abortion in all 50 states, up until the point of viability, and thereafter when necessary to protect a woman's life or health remained the law of the land. And that was a great victory in the sense that we believe that Roe was going to be thrown out the door that states could re-criminalize abortion, that didn't happen. And we're thankful for that.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So you talk about the the additional restrictions that were placed. These were things like the doctors being required to recite a litany of information that was kind of seen as scare tactics for the patients, patients had to travel back twice, which was also kind of seen as a deterrent, sometimes they maybe wouldn't come back or wouldn't be able to come back. And so this was kind of the first time that states were able to put more restrictions on abortion access than there were previously. And something that we saw happen even more in the decades since of chipping away at at Roe. You mentioned that abortion restrictions have disproportionately impacted women of color, women living in rural areas, young women, this is something that we hear a lot. And I think for some people, it might feel a little abstract. So Julie, if you can just talk a little bit about why. What are the actual reasons why that's the case?

Julie Kay
Yeah, thanks, Sabrina. I think that is really important to talk about that while we have this right and there is a strong constitutional right, the reality is very different for many women and for people seeking abortions. As we've seen, during the COVID pandemic, more than ever, access to health care is very limited in this country. And a lot of it depends on having money, a lot of it is just flat out race inequity and structural racism. A lot of it is around the ability to get to healthcare care if you're in a rural area, if you're too young to drive a car, or you don't own a car, because you're low income. Or if you can't take time off of work because you're a low wage worker, or because you're in a situation where you don't have childcare or an abusive relationship, there are so many impediments in daily life to access to healthcare, and then you add in the politicization of access to abortion and reproductive health care services. So we're now looking at a situation where 80% of the counties in the United States don't even have a single abortion provider. So, you know, for some people in in sort of blue states and urban areas where there are providers, it's, you know, much easier to access abortions, there are still impediments to it and getting access to health care is harder than ever. But the other end of the extreme is women who really give don't have the resources or the ability and are then facing things like medically unnecessary waiting period, or they don't have Medicaid funding for abortion services. So we're really looking at structural inequality, structural racism, as well as just in the ability to access healthcare and all that is then kind of wrapped up in hurdles and other kinds of blockades that the that the courts have allowed.

Kathryn Kolbert (Kitty)
Sabrina, it's not all that different from the days before Roe which is even when abortion was banned in most states in this country. Women with means could get abortions. Why? Because they could get on an airplane and fly to New York, or, you know, as in Julie's experience in Ireland, they could, you know, find their way to England and get an abortion there. I grew up in Detroit, which is, you know, right across from Canada, and abortion was allowed in Canada in those days of my high school years and later. So women with means could go across the border, but women without means could not and so I think we need to really think about not only the structural racism that occurs but how all of these kinds of rules affect those people without financial resources. Because as we go forward, when more and more states are banning abortion, that is going to be one of the most significant impediments to appropriate health care.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah. And I think that what's what's really been interesting in the last, I would say, five or so years, even it's so recent is that, like you say, Julie, women of color, low income women, women in the margins, who are kind of disproportionately impacted by this issue are much more in the forefront of this debate, are the ones you know, at the front of the marching lines, and, and suddenly, abortion in the US has become now an issue for women of color, in addition to a broader issue. And, and it's the first time that we're seeing it in that way, right, to be able to actually say, actually, you know, we need to address it and understand the systemic issues that are impacting women in this way. And it is now a much more kind of public dialogue than it ever was before, which is very important.

Kathryn Kolbert (Kitty)
What I would add there, though, is that the importance of all of this is that we think about reproductive freedom and justice broadly, that it's not just the decision to choose abortion, but it's also the ability to choose to become parents and have the resources and, and support systems necessary to raise their children with dignity and health. And I think women of color bring that sensibility to this issue. Why? Because they're dying, in childbirth at alarming rates. Women of color, particularly Native American women, Alaska, native women, black women, are dying in a roughly two to one, over white women as a result of maternity based problems. So I think we need to really think about this issue broadly. And and talk about what it means to become parents and give our populace the support necessary to do so.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, it's really astounding.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I want to emphasize that the thing that we should be taking away in this particular conversation regarding Planned Parenthood V. Casey is that Roe was upheld at the end of the day, but it paved the way for states to place additional burdens and restrictions on abortion. And since then, we've seen that continuing chipping away at access to abortion. And I and because, Kitty you mentioned Justice Clarence Thomas, I also want to note that he was appointed by George H. W. Bush, and was assumed at the time to be the fifth vote right in the Supreme Court to overturn abortion. We all recently lived a deja vu when Justice Brett Kavanaugh was nominated to the Supreme Court by Donald Trump and was accused of sexual misconduct by Dr. Christine Blasi Ford, among others. And back in 1991, with Clarence Thomas, that was Anita Hill. But the point is that in both cases, the outcomes were largely the same. And these two men went on to serve on the Supreme Court.

Kathryn Kolbert (Kitty)
That's right. And that's it's a very, very depressing state that we are in in the sense that Donald Trump had three appointments to this court. We're now at clearly, at least five justices remember that key number five, there are five justices willing to overrule Roe, a sixth, who is certainly willing to undermine it could overrule it as well. So we are in a really, really precarious state. Because while we can be very, very upset about the fact that there are so many restrictions on abortion, we are now seeing the possibility that as many as 25 states in this country, almost half the states could totally ban or almost totally ban abortion. And that makes for a totally different conversation. We, in Julia's and our view, can no longer depend on the Supreme Court to protect our liberties and our rights. We need to change strategies. We've got to quit hitting our head against that marble staircase and literally begin to take back the political process so that we can ensure that women in states in every state in this country will have the ability to choose a portion but that's a long haul and it means we have to start thinking very, very differently.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, and, and it's a shocking prospect when you say that we can no longer run rely on the Supreme Court because the Supreme Court is seen as the highest court of the land, the ones, you know, the justice, the leaders, the, they're gonna do the right thing and it's non partisan. And you know, and all of that is kind of bullshit, unfortunately. And, and we're gonna talk about a lot of the solutions and kind of pivoting that you guys go into. But I want to understand from your perspective, given that conservatives have worked towards a more conservative leaning bench for decades, and it feels mostly because of the issue of abortion. Why do you feel like there's such a singular for focus on this one issue above all other issues?

I mean, I think it goes back to, you know, what we started talking about what draws people to this issue is that it is about control. It's about control of sexuality, it's who gets to have babies, when and how. There are certainly other issues that are going up in flames at the Supreme Court, whether it's gun control or voting, those kinds of things. But this has been a very successful wedge issue for the far right, and they have benefited politically. There are a lot more people who care about having access to legal abortion in this country, the polling data is supportive of legalized abortion, but we don't vote and act like it is. And I think that's one of the things when we get to solutions that we talk about, that needs to happen, we need to move this issue of abortion access up on our list of progressive causes and things that matter to us. And I will say, you know, litigation matters, the Supreme Court matters. But it's certainly not going to ever be our only way of working towards greater reproductive freedom, whether it's at the Supreme Court or other courts. And that's part of you know, Kitty and I believe deeply in courts and law and maybe not as short term justice and expansion of abortion rights. But when combined with activism, and when combined with politics, it really is one of the tools at our disposal, and one that we're seeing that the far right had a, you know, 40 or 50 year plan from the day the ink was dry on Roe and they followed it. And we need to do likewise, we need to kind of realize this is our moment. This is you know, an issue that is deeply important to so many of us and one that we need to work long term to not just protect, but to expand.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I do want to interject just to say that what you're saying, which was also reflected in your book, and very important to note is that conservatives for decades have felt very empowered to publicly and ardently be anti abortion, whereas the more liberal politicians have not been so, so forthcoming in their support of abortion rights.

Kathryn Kolbert (Kitty)
Absolutely. And, you know, Julie and I were talking earlier this morning about the fact that you never see the issue of abortion without the adjective controversial. So it's the controversial issue of abortion. Well, there's really nothing controversial about a settle constitutional right. Okay. But when we let our opponents define what we care about as controversial, it gives the ability of people who want to look upstanding to ignore this issue to just bury it to decide it's private, we won't talk about it, it'll go away. And the fact that it's women that are affected, and the reality is, even though women are entering the workforce, all the leaving the workforce, huge numbers these days, but we're not equal in society, and we haven't yet gained equality. And what that means is, when it's our issue, it it's less important. And it doesn't get the same respect as as an issue that is supported by the guys. And so we need to really think very carefully, not only about how we talk about this, but to say, You know what, guys, our issue is as important as all the ones you care about. Everybody needs to vote on it. 75% of Americans believe that the decision ought to remain between a woman and her doctor, it shouldn't be regulated by law. If that's the case, then our legislators our politics have to reflect that.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So this is really like you both have mentioned a couple of times, it's an issue of control and that is reflected in your book, Controlling Women: What We Must Do Now To Save Reproductive Freedom. So why should women reframe this discussion of access to abortion as an issue of control and how can we do it effectively when opponents have successfully and consistently made their talking point "Abortion is murder, period"?

Kathryn Kolbert (Kitty)
The abortion is murder question is a religious viewpoint. And some religions believe that, but not all, and, and in fact, you know, mainstream Protestant religions, a whole range of religions from Hindus to Jews believe that abortion is appropriate in a variety of circumstances and in some cases should be mandated in some circumstances. So we've let our opposition take over the religious debate. And all of a sudden, it's another excuse to ignore what women are really facing. And I think, let me just say the the example of Texas is a really good one, because there we have seen a state legislature ban abortion, we've seen the Supreme Court ignore women, and basically tell them it's okay to have abortion banned in that state. And as a result, women are traveling hundreds of miles to states all across the country to get abortion services. And there's a lot of news about it in the first month or two. But what was the last article you saw about what's really happening on the ground in Texas? I mean, it's become a silent problem. And why is that? Because it's women. And we've always, you know, for years, faced the problem that silence is a way to make and discriminate against women. And that's what's going on today. And so I think it's really important for us to, I think I said, my TED talk, we say in the book, it's time for that badass social justice movement to begin, it's time for women to be loud and noisy, it's time for us to stand up and say, This is important, not just to us, but to the men in our lives, and to the ability to make decisions about families. And let's get on the bandwagon to make sure that we can politically control all of the states that are likely to take away our rights.

Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. And I think it goes to how we talk about this issue and why it's important to us. You know, one in four women will have an abortion during her lifetime in the United States. But you know, one in one women will be affected by what it means and what we say when we criminalize women's health care. So it's not just whether you will need an abortion or somebody in your life will it's extremely important. But it's also what do we say, as a culture when were willing to allow politicians or prosecutors or priests to determine what somebody does with their own individual bodily autonomy with their liberty with their ability to access their full human rights. And I think this very much is a human rights issue. And what I saw in Ireland was that when abortion was criminalized, it was incredibly stigmatized. It went didn't go away, it went underground, it went to England to Spain, was called it the Irish solution to the Irish problem that individual women and people seeking abortions would simply travel on their own if they were able to, and that was incredibly shaming and it was disruptive, and it cut them off from the health care. So it ended up in a very well known and tragic case of a woman, Savita Halappanavar, who lost her life. She was waiting in the hospital for miscarriage management. The doctors didn't act, didn't act, hemmed and hawed about what to do what would be legal, and in the meantime, by the time they went to treat her, she had sepsis and died. And that really, I think, put a face to a movement that had been building and building for decades and really showed the risks that were at stake. But really using the kind of human rights framework and language is, I think, really something that resonates with a lot of women, a lot of men, a lot of non binary folks about what does it mean for this kind of decision making and who gets to make those decisions?

Sabrina Merage Naim
So our first ever guest on this show 40 some episodes ago was Ailbhe Smyth, veteran civil rights activist and the one of the leaders of the Together for Yes campaign in Ireland to overturn the Eighth Amendment, which was one of the strictest bans on abortion in Ireland. That is actually a story that we in this podcast know very well, but your story in Ireland predates all of that. So tell us about ABC V. Ireland.

Well, it's great to be in good company of so many of the people that I enjoyed working with in Ireland for decades, and I certainly feel like I came in in the middle of the story because in 1983, the Irish government held a referendum and inserted a clause in the Constitution that equated the life of the so called unborn with that of the pregnant woman or mother as they call her in the Constitution. And that was very much in reaction to Roe v. Wade, because Ireland had legalized access to contraception in using a privacy argument that was very similar to the US Supreme Court. So there was fear that abortion would be legalized in Ireland. And so as a result, the government kind of put this referendum forward and worked very closely with the Catholic Church to ban all abortions. So, by the time I came along, in about 2000, there was a lot of grassroots movement happening. But it was very underground, it was very silenced by the shaming stigma around the abortion issue itself. And because the the country's ban was so extreme, I worked very closely with the Irish family planning association. And I brought a case on behalf of three women to the European Court of Human Rights, which is Europe's premier human rights body and it enforces the European Convention on Human Rights, which is a very broad based fundamental human rights treaty signed by 45 countries in Europe. And the idea of bringing the case on behalf of these three women was to show kind of a range of circumstances and not have any one person in the spotlight and judge for their particular circumstances. But to really show the court how this was part of women's everyday healthcare and how varied the different circumstances were. It went hand in hand with a political and media and activism campaign that the Irish family planning association led for a number of years, the court process is slow, as I said at the beginning. So while the case was, you know, working its way up to the grand chamber, there was a lot of work to really reframe this and to talk about it as a human rights issue. And to get away from the religious and philosophical questions about when life began, but really look at what does it mean to not have access to abortion rights. The court eventually found on behalf of one of my clients that she had been denied access to life saving abortion, there was a lot of talk about the other two members, and how there was some real implications for their rights. But the court was not willing to go there. And no, we really had a moment and a place to talk about this as a human rights issue, and one that needed to be dealt with better in Ireland. Throughout the course of this work, there were a lot of demonstrations, there was a lot of change in how we'd spoke about it. And then I think, you know, after the lawsuit, and then the death of Savita Halappanavar was really the sort of front facing activism and a lot of backroom lobbying and politicians and also a lot more women being elected to the Irish parliament who got this and a younger, newer generation. So I think it's a combination of factors. Kitty and I talked in the book a lot about the Irish example, because I think it's one of many worldwide that's happening. If you look at Argentina or Mexico, even in Poland, there's just been a lot more outpouring of the streets and the demand for abortion access as a human right.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So I want to just underline the human rights approach that you're talking about, because it's so different and so important. And exactly what you just said, which is that Roe v. Wade does not protect our right to abortion as a human rights issue. Right. It's as a privacy issue, which is, frankly, semantics like it's, we were lucky.

Kathryn Kolbert (Kitty)
Well, I would I would disagree with that a little bit in the sense that in the later years, even Justice Blackmun really began to understand how much the right to choose abortion affected women's equality, their ability to participate equally in society. So while it started as a privacy decision, in the later years, clearly, the the understanding that women's autonomy, liberty and ability to participate equally was affected. You know, Julie and I disagree with this a little bit in the sense that I am less concerned about how we frame the issue is a political way. I really think the fact that we aren't talking about the issue at all, that it's quiet, that it's secret, that it's hidden in shame is equally as important. And to me, what's important right now is to stand up as our rights are being desecrated by the courts and state legislators and make noise and one of the biggest problems I have is convincing people that we are really going to lose constitutional protection, federal constitutional protection for this ability to make the abortion choice. Most of our you know progressive left doesn't want to admit that that is going to happen. "Oh, it couldn't happen." "Really? You're just making that up." "Oh, you're just being a pessimist." Well, no, I'm not. I'm basing that on the votes that we have seen these guys cast in a whole range of issues, particularly the Texas case, where they have two times allowed, actually, three times now allow the law to take effect. So this is real,

Sabrina Merage Naim
It's so hard for us to wrap our heads around losing Roe and what that will actually mean. Because like you say, so many of us have hooked our dreams on this one case, for decades, right? We've seen that states have chipped away and more conservative judges are at benches and in government and positions, and we see the threat, we've seen it and it's been very kind of slowly creeping up on us. But the rallying cry is, "As long as we have Roe." And what you're saying, which I think we really need to kind of highlight - exclamation mark underline - is that we won't have a Roe much longer.

And I do think that you can't underestimate the amount of stigma when something is criminalized. And that's what worries me about in this country that, you know, if that genie gets out of the bottle, it's going to set us back a lot. And it's not just because individual women will feel shamed, although that's certainly part of it. But it means that this continuation of where companies might stand up for voting rights or Black Lives Matter, those kinds of things, that those are kind of, you know, acceptable to put BLM on your can of Pepsi or those kinds of things, that it just makes abortion all the more the third rail of progressive politics, and we can't allow that to happen.

Kathryn Kolbert (Kitty)
And I was gonna say, it's not if it's gonna happen, it's when it happens, because that's what's coming down the pike.

Well right, it's already happened. And I you know, I think that it will, you know, I agree with Kitty that the Supreme Court is going to do a race Roe, whether they do it in one stroke or two remains to be seen. I think we saw, you know, when I went to the Supreme Court argument heard Justice Roberts really scrambling to find a compromise to save face to preserve the legitimacy of the court that bears his name, trying to say, "Well, what about 15 weeks isn't that long, isn't that enough time to make a decision?" as if somebody were trying to design in a new living room couch or something, and just this very sort of dismissive attitude towards what it means to make abortion inaccessible. It's what we've seen with the Texas case that, you know, since September 1 of 2021, abortion has been nearly ground to a halt in Texas. I mean, there should be a huge clock in Time Square ticking down the number of days, but it's become the new normal. And so, you know, this is part of why we want this message to be out there, why we're excited to have this conversation is not to be Debbie-downers about the end of Roe, but to really tell people, let's not sit around and wait for it, there are things we can do, and we should do what we must do and their activism, and they're raising our voices and bringing in allies. And, you know, yes, even in so called Catholic countries, like Mexico and Argentina, Poland, and others, we've seen progress. And Ireland, of course, is a big example. And so, at the end of the day, you know, this is going to be incredibly harmful to women and people seeking abortions, as it has been in Texas, we're gonna see a lot of individual lives really harmed, if not destroyed in the interim. But I think that overall, Katie and I are optimistic that with the political power, and with the change that we will get somewhere where we want to be where this is a much more established an accepted right, to either have an abortion or not to have an abortion.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I want to ask you a little bit more about two potential trickle downs because a really striking line from the book that I think we all need to understand and internalize. And Kitty you mentioned also, you said half but in the book, it said nearly a third of states have laws to abolish legal abortion that could immediately be triggered at the moment Roe is overturned or soon after. Is it is it a third or is it half?

Kathryn Kolbert (Kitty)
Well, it's it's probably both. There's the half is within a year or a year and a half. I base that let's just be a little political here. There are 26 states right now that are controlled by the Republicans. That means they control the legislature, both the House and the Senate and the Governor seat in those 26 states. That means they have ultimate power to do whatever they want to do in those states. So that's where I think it's likely that we're going to see as many as 26 states outlaw abortion in some form. Now that you know, the laws can vary, it could be different weeks could be different. The people who are affected whatever, but the reality is, is abortion will be criminalized in those 26 states. Now, where are they? That's equally as important as how many because they are often congregated in large geographic areas from Georgia all the way to West to Texas, from north in Idaho all the way south to possibly Arizona. What we're talking about is wide swaths of this nation. You know, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, huge Idaho, all of which could could ban abortion. So I think we need to really think strategically, not just about how you take back those legislatures, which could take multiple election cycles, but how you give havens of care to people in certain key locations. And frankly, what we talk about the most in the book, how we get medication abortion more widely available in states where it is legal, because while I'm never going to advocate illegality here, women are very creative about how they can get a hold of pills, and so that it can trickle into those states where it isn't.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, and I do think that's important to highlight that medication abortion can really change the landscape for many of these geographic regions where you mentioned that something like 89% of US counties do not have a single abortion provider for those places. These medication abortions, which are like pretty easy and non invasive, should be accessible. But in terms of the trickle down that Julie mentioned that I want to go back to, if - when, excuse me - Roe is overturned. What does that mean in terms of the tipping point for other women's rights, what else is at stake?

Once we start chipping away at the fundamental rights or eradicating the fundamental rights that are in Roe, we're also looking at the right to contraception to use contraceptives, it's hard to sit here and believe that anybody would want to ban contraceptives. But again, that's something we've seen time and time as part of the anti abortion movement strategy, because it's about controlling sex, it's about controlling who has sex where and when, and with whom. So we have sort of contraception on the on the chopping block, miscarriage management is something that really, not only will we not have the standards of medical care that we'd like to see, but also it puts women in a vulnerable position of charges that they had attempted to self induce an abortion or had used an illegal method. And when abortion is in the criminal justice system, those same race bias and economic biases come up all the time. So we've seen prosecutions already against women for miscarriages, that they've been accused of attempts to self abort. And, you know, it's a range of different kinds of rights that are issue a lot of LGBTQ plus rights and are have the same legal foundation, the right to privacy that abortion rights do. And we know that the people who are leading the charge and who have been very influential in getting these new Supreme Court justices appointed by Trump share these very ultra conservative and religious fundamental beliefs. And so, you know, I don't want to, you know, say the sky is falling, the sky is falling, but I want us to, you know, I guess have our umbrellas out and ready and start thinking about how we're going to move forward and expand these rights, because not only are they fundamental human rights, they're also politically popular, and we need to start acting that way. And, you know, those of us who have a voice and time and space to do this need to do it on behalf of people who are, you know, not able and not privileged enough to kind of engage and get involved in the same way and and really speak up and be good allies.

Kathryn Kolbert (Kitty)
Sabrina, let me add two issues here. One is, we've seen the right in the last couple of months, really going after school boards, kind of motivated by COVID. But the real point here is let's take over school boards so we can ban books so we can decrease discussion of sexuality so we can make sure women's rights aren't are offered in the classroom, etc. So that's a really big flashpoint. I see moving forward and we're again behind the eight ball because the our opponents are, are already declaring themselves to run for school boards, and we're just thinking about its impact not doing much to stop them. So that's that's a really important thing. Trans rights as well, because we see state legislators really focusing on trans in athletics, but basically just one more opportunity to discriminate against people based on their sexual identity. And I think we'll see that increase as our opponents gain increased political power, and the court continues to operate the way they are.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Okay, so so that all was a really important kind of addendum to this conversation, which largely is about abortion and reproductive rights, but that the trickle down to other issues that impact women. It's all connected, right? And I wanted to really highlight that I want people to understand and internalize that, that this is not one issue for one issue sake that all of these things are interconnected. So now Kitty, this is your time to shine - save Roe has been a rallying cry of abortion rights groups and, and proponents for nearly 50 years, and much of both of your careers have existed to uphold Roe. And now that's like you said, we need to stop banging our heads against the marble staircase, what should the rallying cry be now? Where do we go from here?

Kathryn Kolbert (Kitty)
So to me, the most important place to go is to become active in the political system. The point is elections matter. And people can do something to make a difference in elections. Even if you live in a blue state and your individual elections won't make a difference. You can start making phone calls in red states. You can donate to campaigns, you can write postcards, you can get active in the national party, all of which are going to be critical. And I think, let me just say one more thing about the politics of this, which is the loss of Roe, because it will still come to a surprise to so many American women will be an opportunity to be a turning point on the politics of this issue, particularly in suburban areas where women really swing on this on this question. And if we can use that as a turning point to get more people active, and frankly, to bring in people who are not currently registered to vote, but who would vote in elections on our side of this issue. That's how we're going to win. The right has gerrymandered as much as they can gerrymander, the only way we're going to win these seats is if more people are active, and more people are voting, and that's up to us to make that happen.

Kassia Binkowski
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