Abortion, sex, and stigma

Erin Jorgensen Transcript

Sabrina Merage Naim
From Evoke Media, I'm Sabrina Merage Naim. With me is Kassia Binkowski, and this is Breaking Glass, a series of conversations with women around the world who are shattering glass ceilings and challenging social norms. They are audacious, gutsy, and their stories are echoed across borders and generations in a rallying cry that is changing the narrative for women everywhere. Today is an interesting and different conversation for us. And we're talking to musician Erin Jorgensen, who is also the communications director for Shout Your Abortion. Today's conversation is all about abortion. She gets real and personal with us. She tells us about a portion of her life that she has not felt comfortable talking about publicly. And we get really deep and intimate about abortions of all kinds and for all reasons. And I gotta be honest, at different points, it stretched us. It stretched us in different ways.

Kassia Binkowski
Because what you don't hear in today's episode is the hour long debrief that Sabrina and I walked through after this conversation about this interview and about all of the things that we wish we had asked, and all of the judgments that this conversation kind of challenged us to set down. You know, we get really right to the heart of the issue, which is do you think abortion is good or bad? Period, full stop. And is it that black and white? And we kind of bat that around a little bit. I mean, we were both challenged to figure out where we stand on that.

Sabrina Merage Naim
It is a hugely complex, sensitive issue that is very triggering. It is also not black and white I think for so many people, because there are so many nuances here. But what shout Your abortion is trying to do is destigmatize a highly stigmatized issue, where so many women, almost one in four women in the United States will have an abortion in their lifetime. And we need to be able to talk about it. We need to be able to lift the shame from it so that it's not such a heavy burden for these women to bear. There is a community out there that exists. And talking about it, sharing stories, is one of the most effective ways of changing the impact and changing the story.

Kassia Binkowski
And I think despite the fact that, Sabrina, you and I, you know, have different opinions around abortion in some regards and the nuances around the lines that we would draw, the one thing that we agree on and that Erin obviously shares with us is, is that this is not an issue that anybody should have any business legislating or setting boundaries around on behalf of another woman. You know, spoiler alert, I think we both feel very strongly that this is a choice that women should be making for themselves.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Exactly. And you're going to be hearing things that maybe stretch your comfort zone, and maybe you agree with and maybe will challenge you and that's okay, because that's the nature of an issue like this. And that's the nature of having these conversations. So settle in and take a listen.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Erin, thank you so much for joining us today, we're really excited to have this conversation. And it's a bit unique because most of the guests that we bring on the show, we have some kind of background, there's some kind of public profile out there, but your story is very personal to you, and it's not really out there. So in preparing for this interview, we kind of have a lot of questions, and we're excited to dive in because, you know, this one is a little bit of a blank slate for us. So thank you for joining us and and thanks for being here.

Erin Jorgensen
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Great. So given that we don't know that much about you yet, please take us back to the beginning. Where were you born? What did your education look like? Tell us about your young adult life.

Erin Jorgensen
So I was born in Washington State in a town called Moses Lake, which is like a super small like farming town, pretty religious. It's if you know, you know, Washington State and the eastern side of the state. It's very conservative. It's like a lot of desert. I live in Seattle now, and I remember when I was growing up, I saw a picture of like the rain forests in Seattle, and I thought it was like, you know, Brazil or something. And I was like, there's no way that's the same state. So I grew up pretty religious. I grew up Mormon. I grew up on a farm. And I moved away like as soon as I could have moved to the western part of the state, but

Kassia Binkowski
Where did you go? What do you do?

Erin Jorgensen
I moved to Bellingham, which is on the coast.

Kassia Binkowski
It's beautiful.

Erin Jorgensen
Yeah, yeah. Super beautiful. And I studied music there, so I went to music school at Western Washington University and studied percussion. I didn't finish, but I'm still a professional musician, and that's definitely my obsession. But yeah, I got out of small-town living as soon as I could and went to another small town, but it was kind of full of hippies, so I had, like, you know, both extremes of like a small-town experience.

Kassia Binkowski
I mean, music has a really, really hard career path. I mean, being an artist in general is an incredibly hard career path. What did that look like? What were the kind of early days of pursuing that passion and going to school, graduating? What did that experience look like for you?

Erin Jorgensen
Um, let's see if I can sum that up. What I do is like a little bit strange. I started playing in Drum Corps, which is this glorified marching band basically, and that's when I started playing marimba, which is my favorite instrument—just like a giant xylophone. And it is like a strange career path, and especially strange for me, because what I do, I would say, is pretty unique and doesn't really fit into an orchestral kind of box, which I think is what they prepare you for in school. And I remember realizing after a while: 'This is ridiculous.' You can get a job in an orchestra. Maybe. If somebody dies, you know what I mean? There aren't that many jobs, especially for like percussionists. So yeah, it's definitely been a struggle, like things are going great now. I'd say I'm a musician with a with a day job, which is pretty amazing. But yeah, I worked in a theater for performing arts for a long time before I started working with SYA. I never really made a living as a musician, which has actually been kind of a blessing because I've been able to do exactly what I wanted to do. I don't know if I'm answering your question that well, but it's always been a musician with a with a day job, basically, which has been good for me.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I'm gonna make a kind of a generalization. so forgive me. But my experience with Mormons, people who I know who are Mormon in my life and my surroundings are generally very tight knit with their families and kind of stick around with family for a long time. What drove you to kind of leave your small town? Go chase a different career path? Was your family supportive of that? What What did that picture look like?

Erin Jorgensen
Um, so you're right about Mormons in general, I would say, and I have tons of cousins, of course. And most of their families are like super tight knit like that. And I would say with my siblings and I, we were all very close, but we were all always like a little bit of black sheep. I had tons of cousins and aunts and uncles in the town I grew up in, and they're all like, very, you know, hardcore Mormons still, like very religious. And me and my sister and my brothers were always kind of like the weirdos—like artists or kind of like 'church is boring.' So we all left as soon as we could, and I would say my parents were—I mean, I hope they don't listen to this—but as supportive as they could be but a little bit absent, you know? Now, I feel like I have that support, but it was definitely like a solo endeavor. I don't think I had a ton of parental support of like, 'Yeah, be an artist. Be a musician.' And my dad's still pretty religious. My mom quit as well, so there's definitely that fracturing as well. Just kind of breaking away from everything. I don't know. I always knew for my young age: 'This is not for me.'

Kassia Binkowski
Did you leave the church completely behind at that point?

Erin Jorgensen
Yeah. I mean, I don't know how involved I ever really was, so I didn't have a super uncomfortable religious break or anything. I mean, you get indoctrinated, for sure. From a young age, but I was happy to stop going to so much church. But yeah, I never went to church again once I left my hometown.

Sabrina Merage Naim
At some point after you left, you went into sex work. Help guide us through: At what point in your life? Where were you? How old were you? How long? What were the circumstances that led you in that direction?

Erin Jorgensen
Yeah. Okay. So...— I mean, this is a new conversation for me, just being so open about it. So like, thank you so much for listening, but it might be like a little bit of a struggle for me to sum that up.

Sabrina Merage Naim
And that's okay. At any point, you let us know. Because this is very sensitive and personal to you, so at at your own pace, and with your own comfort level.

Erin Jorgensen
Yeah, it's interesting because I think it really, you know, dovetails with the work that I'm doing now, which is unexpected. But, um, I started doing sex work when I was about 20—early 20s, and it was to buy this instrument. I mean, they won't see it on a video, but it's a marimba, and they're expensive, you know, and I didn't have that, like, support of, like, 'We'll help you buy an violin,' you know? And I was just like, 'How—how—am I going to possibly afford this?' And it was really my reason for living, especially at that time. I was very miserable without an instrument. And, as you say, being an artist, and not having that financial support... You also need so much time, you know? So I was like, 'How am I going to work a full time job and save up for an instrument and have time to practice? There's just no way.' So sex work seemed like a pretty obvious choice to me. And at that time...— I mean, now I think people are more supportive, and you see online things like 'sex workers work' and people kind of holding each other up. And I didn't really have that community at that time, so I felt super isolated. And I worked for an escort service when I started in my early 20s... I think I worked at a strip club first, and it's just so hard. It's such a hustle, you know? Like, this is really difficult. So I worked for an escort service off and on, and that's been almost like 20 years, off and on. That's how I just like survived. Even working in nonprofit arts—which I did for more than 10 years—still, I couldn't survive and pay my rent and be a musician as well. So it's been reall...— There's been pros and cons. A lot of things have been really difficult, and I think the stigma and shame and secrecy around that was probably the hardest thing.

Kassia Binkowski
Well, that's what I was gonna ask is, how, how much of that were you forced to keep a secret? Did people around you know that that's what you were doing? Did you feel like you had anybody you could talk to about the experience?

Erin Jorgensen
Um, you know, some people knew, like, a couple of my siblings knew. We're pretty tight, so they knew. And then at first, I was fairly open about it because I, personally, for whatever reason, just didn't have a lot of judgment around it, you know? And I could see the positive things that were happening, like, 'Wow, men are really a mess. They really need some help.' So there are negative things, but I could also see positive things happening as well, so I didn't have a ton of judgment around prostitution or people working in strip clubs or sex work in general. So I was pretty open about it at the beginning, and that's when I started getting a lot of judgment from people. And I was surprised.

Kassia Binkowski
Yeah, what were their responses?

Erin Jorgensen
Um, I mean, people were—are—super mean. And look down on you, or, you know, they think differently of you. Or something that I experienced was almost like not being taken seriously as a full human being. You're almost like a cartoon. People are like, 'Oh, what's the worst thing that ever happened?' I'm like, 'This is my real life,' you know? So I just stopped talking about it, and then you start to internalize more and more of this societal stigma. And like working at my straight job, I definitely kept that a secret because I was, you know, worried that I would get fired, and then where will I be? Do you know what I mean? And I don't know how much of these things are real or not because I wasn't talking to anyone about them, but that's like the impression that I had for sure for years.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, so I think we're gonna get into your 'straight job' as you call it in a minute because that dovetails from the story, of course, but is this work that still is an aspect of your life today?

Erin Jorgensen
No, I haven't done it for like two years now. So it hasn't been that long. But yeah, it was off and on for nearly like two decades.

Sabrina Merage Naim
What made you walk away finally?

Erin Jorgensen
For me, personally, there is a pretty intense disassociation that I developed to stay in that field, which I didn't really realize was happening. And I just had a very clear intuition one day of like, 'This is gonna kill you.' And I'm kind of worried to say that because I don't want to be like, 'Sex work is terrible, and it's just bad for everyone,' because I think for a lot of people, it's positive and good.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, let's be clear for anyone who's listening that this is your, Erin's, personal experience.

Erin Jorgensen
Yeah. Thank you. Um, so I just knew that it was time to stop, and for the first time in my life, I had a job that I was able to stop and do something else. It's been a trip because I haven't really had sex very often because I just wanted to so that's really exciting for me right now. It's kind of a new thing. I mean it could be enjoyable while working as an escort, but it was never, you know, just like my personal decision. That's been pretty amazing for the last couple years to kind of explore that. But for me, I was just like, 'It's time to stop. That's enough of that experiment.'

Kassia Binkowski
I can imagine the mental and physical health repercussions of that lifestyle, and the burden of living and kind of that duality and the secrecy and the stigma around it. And so I was gonna ask how your mental health was, but you kind of already shed light on but your reflection on never being able to enjoy sex for sex, and never being able to own those decisions and, you know, fully embrace that pleasure and experience that because it's something that you want and you made a choice around is a fascinating observation.

Erin Jorgensen
For me, that's how it felt. I mean, there were definitely times when it was like fun, and I think there's like something in my personality that was like, 'This is kind of fun and exciting. Let's try this.' And I do see a lot of positive things come out of it as well and maintain some positive relationships, but yeah, to keep yourself like mentally safe. I feel like I was always a little bit removed and didn't even realize I was doing that.

Sabrina Merage Naim
During that period of your life, you had four abortions, and I'm curious how you see abortion as fitting into the larger landscape of contraception?

Erin Jorgensen
Um, well, for me, that's been quite a journey. So in my work, I hear a lot of abortion stories and talk to a lot of people who have had abortions, where I really didn't before. I didn't even talk about mine. So your question on where do I see abortion fitting into contraception? I have learned that a lot of people have multiple abortions, and it is kind of a method of birth control for many people. It's pretty common for people to have five, six, seven, eight abortions, and for a lot of people, the IUD or the pill is just like... Their body's like, 'No.' Their side effects are horrible. You hear people say, like, 'Well, I'm in favor of abortion, but only if it's not used as birth control,' and I had to really be like, 'Huh, you know, it is birth control, you know? Like, literally it is.' So, it's really hard for me to judge anybody else's decisions on how many abortions they have? I'm not sure how succinctly I'm answering your question. I think it's definitely a vital part of the spectrum of like birth control.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, I think this is where we need to educate ourselves and our audience, right? It's so easy for someone to say, 'There exists a whole array of contraception out there that would hypothetically prevent someone from having to have multiple abortions.' Well, the reality of the situation is that there are a lot of women out there who have had to have multiple abortions, and let's paint a clearer picture of why that is the case. So you started by saying that a lot of women have very negative side effects to certain types of birth control that exist, right? There is the pill that causes all kinds of hormonal ups and downs and weight gain and acne and mood issues, and a lot of women struggle with that kind of stuff. The IUD similarly has a lot of side effects. Obviously, condoms as you know, break. They aren't always available accessible, whatever. What are the other things that exist? Because I want to, for the purposes of this conversation, crack open some of the judgments that can be brought to a conversation like this, where people come with preconceived notions of 'It's easy; we have contraception. Why would you need to, you know, have an abortion or multiple abortions?' What are some of the things that you hear through, you know, Shout Your Abortion, or even your own story that can answer those judgments?

Erin Jorgensen
So for me, the main thing that I always come back to when I hear people's judgments around, 'Why did you have an abortion when you could have used XYZ?' is the idea that abortion is bad. Once I let that go, and I'm like, 'Do I think abortion is bad?' then I can let go of all those judgments. I don't know why people decided to have an abortion, and because I don't see abortion as a punishment, then it's fine. They can have an abortion for whatever reason they decide to, and for some people, it's it's difficult physically, and for some people, it's difficult emotionally, and for some people it isn't. It's like fine, you know? A lot of people are very relieved and happy sometimes and confused. So, there's always something a little bit twisted, when people are saying, 'Well, why didn't you take the pill?' or 'Why didn't you have contraception? Than you wouldn't have had to have an abortion.' But if abortion isn't bad, then it's like, why are we framing it that way? Do you know what I mean? And to answer your question a little bit more, people's lives are so complicated, so there's all kinds of reasons why somebody might have one abortion, two abortions, three abortions, and just saying like, 'Well, why don't you just take the pill?' We don't know what people's lives are like. So for me, it's interesting for me too, because, a couple years ago, when I started talking about having four abortions, and I felt the same, I was like, 'Why did I do that?' Like, why didn't I like, quote, unquote, take care of myself. That is so weird. And for my personal story, it definitely like goes back to that dissociation, where it's strange for me to think about now, but I just really couldn't think even into the next day. Do you know what I mean? And like, taking a pill, or even using condoms, or using protection really felt like something that was out of my control. I felt like I didn't really have control of my body and my life. It's like a very strange— maybe it's pretty common—mental tick, whereas now I'm just like, 'Yes, of course, I would, you know, take precaution like XYZ because I don't particularly want to have another abortion.' But back then, yeah, it was very, like, fuzzy, you know? So I'm like, 'Well, my life isn't that weird,' so I know if that kind of thing can happen to me, and you can have like, four abortions, and people are like, 'Why didn't you learn your lesson?' Well, A) I don't feel like it was a punishment. But B) That kind of mental state is like a mystery to me as well. Now I feel very clear headed and able to take care of myself. But then I really, really didn't. So yeah, I'm sure I'm not the only one dealing with like, complex life choices.

Kassia Binkowski
I think we can safely say that you are not the only one. How did you react to them? You said yourself, there's a whole spectrum of reactions emotionally to that experience. From the shame and the stigma to the relief to the guilt. What was your experience?

Erin Jorgensen
Well, for me, I would say I was definitely relieved because I didn't want to be pregnant, but I was still kind of existing in this like, very fuzzy, get-through-the-day mental state. Something that I hear in stories sometimes that I'm almost a little bit like jealous of is people had a really strong connection to their body, and they have a strong connection to the pregnancy even, and they will do a little ritual for themselves. And as I said, I'm like a hippie, so I like this kind of stuff of stuff like, 'Well, it's not your time to be on this planet' so they'll let this energy go. I'm a little bit jealous of that because they had such a nice closure and were very like in touch with their body and the abortion and the pregnancy. So I didn't really started dealing with any of that stuff until a couple years ago, I would say, and still like until I really started talking about my abortions. And then I was able to kind of like go back and yeah, come to terms with them. But I never really felt sad. I never wanted to be pregnant. I never experienced any of that, like, 'Oh, I wonder what my child would be like now.' Like, no. I didn't want to and I didn't want to have it baby with any of these people that I got pregnant with. So for me it was overall positive.

Sabrina Merage Naim
And what about back then? You mentioned that you didn't talk about it? But did you have a support network to navigate this with?

Erin Jorgensen
No, not really. I was pretty isolated. I mean, the men were sort of there, kind of.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So you told the men?

Erin Jorgensen
Yeah.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Why did you make that decision?

Erin Jorgensen
Well, I was a sex worker then, but these people were people that I was in a relationship with. So yeah, I mean, I told them and so I could have a ride and have a little bit of help. But I mean, I'm sure they did the best that they could, but a lot of that support was not that helpful. Men have a lot of a lot of work to do in understanding abortion I think. So, no, I didn't really talk to anyone about it. It was still kind of a shameful thing. And then you know, when I had like four I was like, 'There's no way I'm telling anyone ever.'

Kassia Binkowski
So what changed? I mean, what changed that two years ago you left sex work behind, you spoke openly about having four abortions? What changed in your life? What was this pivot moment for you?

Erin Jorgensen
A lot of things happened. I think working at Shout Your Abortion, for example, I'm hearing all these abortion stories and like amplifying all these abortion stories on the internet and in live events before COVID all the time. And I was eventually like, 'I have to put my money where my mouth is you know and tell my own story as well.'

Sabrina Merage Naim
Let's fill in the gaps a little bit. You are the communications director for Shout Your Abortion, which is a decentralized network of individuals normalizing conversations around abortion. A lot of it is just like deeply personal experiences that people write in to try and normalize and destigmatize this issue. And like you said, you are roommates with Amelia who's the founder. Tell us a little bit about the origin story of this organization? Why and how did it come to be?

Erin Jorgensen
So Shout Your Abortion started, I think, in 2015, and Amelia started talking about her abortion on Facebook. And I think she just realized one day like, 'Wow.' She's very communicative and a talker, and she was like, 'This is strange that I've never talked about my abortion to my friends. We've talked about literally everything else—drugs sex, whatever—but not abortion. And her friends were kind of being like, 'Yeah, I've had an abortion too. This is a little bit weird.' So she started talking about her abortion on Facebook and her friend, Lindy West, put a screenshot of that on Twitter with a hashtag,ShoutYourAbortion, almost as kind of a joke, and then it just started taking off on the internet, and tons of other people started jumping in and saying, 'I had an abortion too' and using the hashtag ShoutYourAbortion. So yeah, I think it's really Amelia's reason for being on the planet... To crush abortion stigma. So it became clear that there was a parallel with like not talking about abortion and what is happening like in the legal landscape with abortion access because for so long, the pro-choice, pro-abortion side has been so, I think, scared and silenced into talking about our abortions and using catchphrases like 'safe, legal, and rare,' And abortion isn't rare at all, you know. It's super common. But catchphrases like that make people feel more isolated and more alone. And when people who are pro-choice, pro-abortion are scared to even say the word 'abortion' that just leaves this vacuum for people who aren't scared to use the word abortion to come in and completely define the landscape, which is exactly what happened. You know, like anti-abortion people kind of defined the word 'abortion' for people in the US, I think.

Kassia Binkowski
What questions did you have? What ambiguity existed for you? Take us back to your first abortion. I mean, if that's the landscape that we all exist in, what was your own expectation? What fears did you have? What was that experience like?

Erin Jorgensen
Um, so my first abortion... I've had two surgical or in-clinic abortions and two medication abortions. So the first one was in the clinic, and I really didn't know what to expect.

Kassia Binkowski
I mean I would have no idea what to expect. None. Despite being an otherwise educated... I have access to health care. I have friends who've experienced them, but like you said, haven't really spoken about it. And I really wouldn't know.

Erin Jorgensen
Yeah, it's wild, right? Because so many of us have had them, and it's pretty—if you go into the clinic—it's pretty quick. It's pretty standard. They'll give you like a Valium or something if they want you... if you want to calm down. And then the procedure itself is super quick now. It's like a US vacuum aspiration as what it's called. And it takes like five minutes, and, for me anyway, I experienced very intense cramps. The nurses are super sweet. They're holding your hands during the procedure. And then it's over. And you can have animal crackers and juice and hang out in the back. And there's a bunch of other people back there. That was very surprising to me too because I was like, 'Oh, my God, all these other people are getting abortions. Some of them are clearly mothers, all kinds of ages,' I was very shocked by that because, again, it felt like such a taboo. You can't talk about it, you know?

Sabrina Merage Naim
So just to be clear, the stigma, of course, with mothers is, 'If you are already a mother, or if you are a married woman, then there's no excuse for you to have an abortion.' Right?

Erin Jorgensen
Yeah, isn't that wild? It's crazy. I think the statistics in the US are that 60% of the people having abortions already have kids. It's more than half of people having abortions are already mothers. So yeah, it's a very strange thing. Like, you know, motherhood is this kind of like special, like sacred thing. Like, of course, if you get pregnant, you always want to have a kid. And it's like, 'That's not true.' Often it is hard for people and they're like, 'I do want to have this baby, but I can't afford it,' or, 'I don't want to have it with this person are.' An interesting story that I read sometimes is people are like, 'My reaction seeing the ultrasound was night and day with the baby that I had and then the baby that I didn't have. Just like yes and no.' So yeah, for people—even for the same person— it's a completely different experience, depending on what's happening.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I also want to just acknowledge that, of course, this is another issue that impacts women almost only, right? That the the burden of carrying the stigma is always on the women even though men contribute to a pregnancy, whether wanted or unwanted, just as much as a woman does, right?

Erin Jorgensen
Right. Yeah.

Sabrina Merage Naim
And the men never have to deal with that stigma or the shame or the weight of making a decision like that, or going through the procedure, none of it. And I guess I'm curious, in the cases that you had where you had a partner that you talked to about it, you know, some sometimes the pushback is, 'Well men should be able to make this decision too.' Did you ever feel like for you, it was so clear, I don't want to have this baby, right? Did you ever feel like it needed to be a bigger conversation that was more of a two way street? Like, 'How do you feel about this? Are you okay with this?'

Erin Jorgensen
Right.

Sabrina Merage Naim
How did that go for you?

Erin Jorgensen
I mean the first thing that popped into my head was like, 'Other people besides women are having abortions, like trans people and non-binary people, people who don't identify as women, have abortions as well.' So I just want to throw throw that in there because they've definitely been left out of the movement and the larger conversation for a lot of time. So that's maybe another topic, but for me, the relationships that I was in? No. It didn't feel like a larger conversation. For some people, yeah, they they're like, yeah, 'I talked to my partner, and we're really like, 50/50 on this.' That is a comment that we get sometimes—'Well men should have like an equal stake in this decision'—and I completely don't agree, obviously, because, you know, it's not their body that's having the baby but also if you flip that logic, it's like, well, should your male partner or you know, the partner who got you pregnant, be able to force you to get an abortion then? Because it's the same thing. But then people are kind of like, 'No, that's crazy. Of course, like her husband shouldn't tell her to get an abortion.' Well then why should he have a say in if she has a baby or not? So I don't think that's a rule but like we can make for everyone. That's seems ridiculous to me.

Sabrina Merage Naim
This is so situational. It is so personal to each person, which also means that legislating it across, you know, all genders, all people, all whatever to make it one thing for everyone is a ludicrous concept, right? This is not something that can and should be legislated on, period. But even if you consider it for a second, that making any sort of legislation that is just a catch-all for everyone going through this doesn't even make sense. It is so situational.

Kassia Binkowski
Which is to say a type of procedure or gestational weeks after which it's acceptable or not acceptable. Like none of those fit the situation, the complexity of that decision, and the circumstances in which a woman is making that decision. It renders that completely absurd, you know, to assume that we can put this in a box that clearly defines it for everybody.

Sabrina Merage Naim
You hear stories all the time from people who have had abortions. Have you experienced or spoken to any of the people who are actually outside of clinics picketing?

Erin Jorgensen
I haven't.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I'm curious because I don't think they're necessarily malicious people, right? I don't think that they are—and this is completely instinctual, right— But my guess is that they really, truly believe what they're saying. They really truly believe that they're doing the right thing, and that it's like, a higher calling or whatever. But where does that come from? Like, why? How much of it is religiously based? How much of it is societally based? How much of it is familial? It's, it's curious to me, you know, when you sit down and talk to someone who has such a differing view, who is trying to kind of put their values onto other people's decisions and onto other people's freedoms, where that comes from? Like, how can you bridge the divide?

Erin Jorgensen
Yeah, that's an interesting question. I think it's such a strong thing in America now with fundamentalist Christians, and the anti-abortion movement is pretty powerful here and has a lot of financial backing. So I think there's a lot of what I would call even indoctrination from a young age from people who are like, 'Let's get a busload of kids and take them to the abortion clinic.' Things like that happened all the time. So just like for me, growing up Mormon, that's what I learned. I didn't know anything. You know, I learned that abortion was like, bad when I was growing up. And I never, I never talked to anyone else who'd had an abortion, that was the only thing that I knew. So I think for a lot of these people, that is the only thing that they know. And another kind of story that we get fairly often is somebody who was like, 'I grew up totally, like pro-life, and I didn't change my mind until I got pregnant, and I was like, Whoa, this is real, like, if I don't do something, I'm gonna have a child. This is reality now.'

Kassia Binkowski
Well, I think it's very easy to draw lines before it becomes personal, right? Like, I live down the street, like, three blocks from one of the abortion clinics, one of very few in the country, if I'm not mistaken, that will do very late pregnancy, third trimester abortions. And so on our way to the market every day, we pass people protesting that, and, yeah, at first glance or first thought, the prospect of a late pregnancy abortion is horrifying. It sounds scary and traumatic on so many levels. And it sounds like a painful decision to make. And you can fathom why somebody might protest that.

Erin Jorgensen
Yeah.

Kassia Binkowski
And then last summer, I had a girlfriend who needed it for a devastating medical diagnosis, and who had to travel across the country to that clinic to get the access that she needed. And as soon as it becomes personal, and as soon as there's that connection. I think, you know, it's it's often the only way to change your opinion on matter.

Erin Jorgensen
Yeah, I think you're right, when you just hear these ideas like, 'Oh, we should be on abortion after 20 weeks,' and if you haven't really thought about it, you're like, 'Well, you should totally be able to make up your mind by 20 weeks, like, come on,' but, once you get a little deeper into it, there are all these kinds of reasons why. They're super complex. Unless somebody is, in my opinion, severely mentally ill, nobody's gonna flex, you know? Just try to be pregnant for nine months as a flex and then change their mind. You know what I mean? It's like something else is happening there.

Kassia Binkowski
There are circumstances that you can't fathom.

Erin Jorgensen
Right.

Sabrina Merage Naim
But the problem I think, is that we're—not we, the the government or the anti-abortion kind of line—is not trusting that people will be able to make that decision for themselves with their own kind of intentional approach and that there are all of those reasons. The legislation that is trying to be pushed across the line wants to restrict the ability for people to make those decisions, and from my perspective, it's very much because the trust is not being placed on the people who are actually going through it. Right?

Erin Jorgensen
Yeah, yeah.

Sabrina Merage Naim
And that trust and that decision is being taken out of their hands because... I don't... I mean... I can't even fathom why.

Kassia Binkowski
I think it's a combination of both the trust that they can make that decision intentionally and also this blanket, it is good or it is bad. Which, you know, Erin, as you opened with, like, if you can release that judgment and, you know, let yourself set that aside for a minute of abortions or not just outright bad, then it kind of frees you up to accept any reason that somebody might choose to have one and obviously the anti-abortion movement can't can't get there.

Sabrina Merage Naim
We obviously tremendously value storytelling as a tool for social change. That's what this whole podcast is about. And Shout Your Abortion was really built on that same model, so I would love to hear a little bit more from your perspective as to is it working? Do you feel like the dial is being pushed? I mean, from my perspective, going and picketing or, you know, screaming at legislators is not the way.

Erin Jorgensen
Yeah, I'm with you. I think that that's that's the way we change the world: through personal stories and owning your own narrative, no matter what the world is telling you. If you can find like that little bit of love to give to yourself, I feel like that's probably step one—and the most important thing.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Breaking Glass is a production of Evoke Media. Evoke is a nonprofit organization that exists in order to elevate the people and stories that are working to make the world a more unified and equitable place. Learn more at weareevokemedia.com