BONUS: Behind the scenes with Kassia and Sabrina

Guest: Kassia Binkowski & Sabrina Merage Naim
Do you ever find yourself wondering who the personalities are behind these voices on Breaking Glass? This one's for you. Today we're pulling back the curtain and co-hosts Sabrina and Kassia are getting personal. We're rambling about the complexity of podcasting, the mess of motherhood, and how in the world we ended up in partnership with one another on this show. Kassia opens up about trying to raise empathetic children and her crush on old men, while Sabrina reflects on the profound impact of her gap year and her global goals for this show. Together, we vow to do a better job weaving our own stories into this global conversation about womanhood.
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Kassia Binkowski & Sabrina Merage Naim Transcript

Kassia Binkowski
Hey, hey, friends! I'm Kassia Binkowski with me is the lovely Sabrina Merage Naim. And you're listening to a bonus episode of Breaking Glass. As it turns out, feminism is too big and too wild and too totally unruly to ever be contained in a single show format. So we've decided to offer up some extraordinary episodes, we're talking glimpses behind the scenes, teasers for future shows, previously unaired conversations and intimate eavesdropping between Sabrina and myself. Get ready to feast your ears fine people. Take a listen.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Hello, Kassia.

Kassia Binkowski
Hello, hello.

Sabrina Merage Naim
What we wanted to do was address some of the questions that have been coming our way around, who are you? We have these incredible conversations with really inspiring guests from all over the world. And we're learning so much and we hope that you're learning so much. But there has been a, maybe an empty space in terms of the getting to know your your co hosts. And so that's what this is, here's who we are.

Kassia Binkowski
We're about to get really real. Let's dive into rapid fire questions, Sabrina, because as we will talk about momentarily, there's a lot that we don't know about each other. You know, our friendship and partnership in this space is a lot newer than people might assume. And so I think it's gonna be fun for us to learn as much as our listeners.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, I'm excited about that. And I also will preface this by saying that the one thing that you and I Kassia have in common is that we suck at talking about ourselves.

Kassia Binkowski
The worst, we are the worst.

Sabrina Merage Naim
We're the worst. If I can channel Meredith Fineman for a second and her episode about bragging better, we really do not know how to do that. It's a practice that we will constantly be working on. And we are so content to be shining the light on these incredible guests from around the world and to be in the background. And frankly, it is time now to come forward a little bit more.

Kassia Binkowski
Yeah. And speaking of background, I didn't tell you this, but I'm also recording video.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Ah, homie, I'm not wearing makeup.

Kassia Binkowski
Turns out, we're not wearing makeup, so.

Sabrina Merage Naim
That's okay. That's okay.

Kassia Binkowski
All right, Sabrina, let's do this.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Let's do it.

Kassia Binkowski
How old are you?

Sabrina Merage Naim
I am 35 fucking years old. How old are you?

Kassia Binkowski
Ditto.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Did we know that about each other? I think we did. I think we knew that we're the same. Yeah.

Kassia Binkowski
I think you were a year ahead of me in school. But same age.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So does that make me a whole year smarter?

Kassia Binkowski
Nope. Not at all. Where in the world do you live?

Sabrina Merage Naim
I live in Santa Monica, California.

Kassia Binkowski
Oh, also, leaf blowers are back.

Sabrina Merage Naim
You know it's okay, we're just gonna ignore that.

Kassia Binkowski
How long have you lived there?

Sabrina Merage Naim
I have lived in Santa Monica for 11 years. I've lived in LA kind of broadly, for 13 years consecutively. But the first 9 years of my life were also in LA and I will just anecdotally say that my biggest memory of growing up in LA is taillights.

Kassia Binkowski
Because of so much time in the car?

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, we spent so much time. I lived with my family in Bel Air, and we had to go every morning over the hill to the valley for school. I went to school in Encino. And there was traffic because this is LA. And so I remember very clearly as a little kid, thinking to myself, why are the cars on the right side of the road? They have red lights. And the cars on the left side of the road have white lights? Like I didn't understand the concept of taillights and headlights. But that is my most distinctive kind of memory of growing up in LA.

Kassia Binkowski
So we just had a conversation. We just drove, my family, from Colorado to California and back, and had a conversation with our four year old trying to explain that in the United States, you always drive on the right hand side of the road. And he kept pointing out the window and he'd be like, but no mom, there's cars on the left. Like I see the cars... and I was like, but it's always your right.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So smart.

Kassia Binkowski
Really complicated concept.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah. Confusing thing to have to explain. Yeah, so I've been living in Southern California for the biggest chunk of my life. But I grew up, the formative years, in Denver, which leads me to...

Kassia Binkowski
Which is not far from where I live.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Which is?

Kassia Binkowski
The beautiful, beautiful Boulder, Colorado.

Sabrina Merage Naim
But that's not where you're from.

Kassia Binkowski
I'm from Wisconsin. Madison, Wisconsin, originally. Went to school, went to my first year of college in Connecticut. Had toured Boulder, and had decided that I should go smaller. Right? Like I don't need a big party school, tiny little liberal arts college will be nice. Went to Connecticut, which had 2,000. Connecticut College, so 2,000 kids. Super tiny, loved it. Also knew I needed to get the fuck out, I could not live in New London, Connecticut for more than those 8 months or 10 months, however long the school year is, and transferred to Boulder. And so I've now done time on both coasts. Since then, I've been back here in Boulder for like 12 years.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I'm also a transferee, actually.

Kassia Binkowski
Really?

Sabrina Merage Naim
So I started out at the University of San Francisco, which is a small Jesuit university. I thought I wanted to be in a big city, I didn't care how big the college was. That was a mistake in retrospect. Because it was also, I think, no more than 2,000 I think, maybe 2,000 for undergrad and grad school combined. But it was right in the heart of San Francisco. And I thought that that would be really cool. And it was... I think I actually would have liked to have more of a campus experience in retrospect. But I was there for two years. I studied abroad in Tel Aviv for a full year. And then I transferred back to DU, University of Denver.

Kassia Binkowski
For your last two years.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, which if you're doing the math, it means that I was in undergrad for five years. And the reason for that is, I had to actually, so at the time, there was a travel warning on Israel.

Kassia Binkowski
Okay.

Sabrina Merage Naim
And there weren't any universities that were sending their students to Israel for undergrad, which pissed me off because I am someone who knows that country pretty well. And I knew that it was safe and okay, and, you know, media wants to spin it, however, media spins it. And I really wanted to go, I went to the office at my university, and I was like, I would like to go like, do I need to sign a waiver? Or do I need to do something that makes it not your liability if something happens to me? And they're like, why don't you go to London or Barcelona? Which are beautiful cities, but that was not the experience I wanted. So I actually had to withdraw from school, go completely on my own, take classes that had nothing to do with my major, which was marketing. I was taking classes on Middle Eastern Studies, and the Arab-Israeli conflict and history and all kinds of things like that, which was so cool. And I learned a new language. And then when I had to reapply, to come back, and it was like the best year of my life.

Kassia Binkowski
So did you do that? Had you already technically transferred to DU, and then unenrolled?

Sabrina Merage Naim
No, I was unaffiliated.

Kassia Binkowski
But that was still like, the negotiation was with San Francisco.

Sabrina Merage Naim
The negotiation was with San Francisco. And then when I left, I was like, F-you, I'm not coming back. And then I had to apply to DU.

Kassia Binkowski
And I ask only because it makes me like... I wish I would have, and therefore I think everyone in the world should, because that's really egotistical. I think that a gap year would position everybody for a more productive college experience. And I think that would be awesome. Which is kind of what you did. You did a year, and then you went back for three more years of college.

Sabrina Merage Naim
For two more years, yeah. I did it right in the middle. But that's, I think, it was equally as impactful for me, and it would have been for someone in between high school and college. I actually have, my cousin's son graduated from high school in the middle of all of this COVID nonsense, and he didn't want to go to college in the middle of it still, and not have the whole experience. And so he's taking a gap year and he is working and when he is able, I'm sure he'll travel again, and it's okay. You know?

Kassia Binkowski
Do you think that was the earliest pivotal international experience for you or was there something earlier, globally, that kind of opened your eyes and really kind of shifted your path or just shifted your own self identity, self awareness?

Sabrina Merage Naim
Hmm, I would say I was fortunate enough growing up that I took family vacations and we took, you know, beautiful exotic trips and I have a lot of very fond memories of those. And those trips opened my eyes to different cultures and this world that I wanted to explore. But it wasn't the same.

Kassia Binkowski
But differently. Right.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Very differently.

Kassia Binkowski
100%.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I went by myself, I was actually with my cousin, who was my age, and she was going to UCSB at the time. And she and I grew up as sisters. The two of us went together without the grownups right? And immersed ourselves in a culture that we didn't really, we had never experienced in that way before. We had experienced only as tourists. Immersed ourselves in language courses, we, for six weeks, we had nine hours a day of straight Hebrew for six weeks. That's intense.

Kassia Binkowski
That's a lot.

Sabrina Merage Naim
It's a lot. I mean, it was phenomenal.

Kassia Binkowski
Can you still speak it?

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yes. Although maybe not as well. Because it's been like, whatever. 15 - 16 years. And, I don't practice as much as I wish I did, but yeah.

Kassia Binkowski
Are your kids being raised with any other languages?

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yes. Which is interesting to recognize that, you know, they say that kids who grow up multilingual are usually a bit speech delayed, and I have experienced that with both my kids. But then when they are ready, they go gangbusters, it's just like a flood. The floodgates open.

Kassia Binkowski
Are they getting it from school? Are they getting it from your husband or family? Where are they getting it from?

Sabrina Merage Naim
So, they speak Spanish at home with our nanny, who is this lovely woman from El Salvador and I have asked her, like only Spanish in the house. And at school, they will learn Hebrew. They're a little young for it now, but they're starting a little. And then my parents try to speak to them in Farsi.

Kassia Binkowski
That's a lot.

Sabrina Merage Naim
It's a lot.

Kassia Binkowski
That's amazing.

Sabrina Merage Naim
What about your kids?

Kassia Binkowski
Just English.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Good old fashioned American.

Kassia Binkowski
Just American children speaking English. No, I think we had these really... I speak Spanish. Not fluently, but like very conversationally, you can come around, confidently in it. As a result of studying it for like 12 years in school, and then studying abroad in Ecuador, working in Guatemala.

Sabrina Merage Naim
See, these are things I didn't know about you.

Kassia Binkowski
I know. There's all sorts of things. I have all sorts of secrets, Sabrina. And so I had these really grand ambitions of raising my kids to speak Spanish. And we live in Colorado where there's a huge Hispanic community. And that felt really important and our nanny for my eldest son was from Mexico and only spoke Spanish to him from when he was like zero to two. And so he was picking it up. And then we lost her unfortunately, as childcare turnover is a constant stage in our life, constant presence in our life. And then we never found the right fit for that again. And then we were going, okay, so that was two years ago. He's four now. So he lost it for two years and didn't have exposure. He goes to kindergarten in the fall. We were like, okay, do we prioritize the bilingual school? You know, we're lucky we're in a very good school district, there's a lot of great options. There's no bad option really. But then our neighborhood school is not the bilingual school, so it would be across town to get him to where that is.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Wait, let's just be clear, because Boulder is pretty small. What does across town really mean?

Kassia Binkowski
Approximately a mile and a half from our house.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Okay, shut up.

Kassia Binkowski
It's just not the neighborhood school. It's not the one that is just down the street.

Sabrina Merage Naim
You could be so cute and walk your kid to school every day.

Kassia Binkowski
It's interesting. It's similarly far. It's just not the one that our neighborhood feeds its kids into.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Okay.

Kassia Binkowski
Does that make sense? When I say neighborhoods get less about location and more about like the one that we were assigned to?

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah.

Kassia Binkowski
So we've had that really real wrestle as parents sending their first kid to school. Do you prioritize the bilingual language exposure and the cultural diversity? Do you prioritize the one that has like the better academics? Because it isn't catering to you know, multiple languages. And we've really wrestled with that choice. And so for the time being, we're sending them to the neighborhood school, which is not the bilingual one. But I still get a little torn up in knots about you know, he's in kindergarten should we be just be prioritizing the cultural diversity, and the language exposure and not worried about the academic readings? I don't know.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So let's just acknowledge at this point that this is a very privileged decision to be able to make because I have similarly struggled with this. I mean, my daughter is still in preschool, and she'll go into pre-k next year. She goes to a lovely Jewish school that prioritizes learning about our culture and religion and the holidays and connects, like-minded peers and families. And we have this beautiful community where we all come together, and we rely on each other. And that's lovely. Is it the most culturally diverse place? No.

Kassia Binkowski
Of course not.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Right.

Kassia Binkowski
And also, let's be clear, the options I'm talking about, these are all the public school options. We're just lucky to be in a great school district that has choices and that has open enrollment so that we get to choose, right? But yeah, I don't... I mean, my poor first child, I feel like we just make it up as we go along with him, right? Like he's the guinea pig.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Isn't that the best way?

Kassia Binkowski
Yeah, but also, like, best for us or best for him? I don't know. I think time will tell. Hopefully, we're not screwing him up.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I know, I really do, I believe, first of all, my philosophy, which I talked to my friends about, is that no matter what you do, your kids will be in therapy, bitching about how you screwed them up about anything. There's gonna be something, right? So like, let's just put our minds at ease that we're doing the best we can. And yet, there's always still going to be something. But also the idea that, I think this is a very millennial concept, the idea that we have to have everything figured out and know exactly what to do and make sure that we're constantly keeping our kids engaged and stimulated and entertained. It is ludicrous to believe that we can check all of those boxes, and frankly, it's not good for them. It's not good for them at all. And it's certainly not good for us.

Kassia Binkowski
It's not good for anybody. Right? Exactly. Like the pressure of that, the standards of parenting right now are impossibly high.

Sabrina Merage Naim
It's still I mean, I talk to people, friends of mine, and I love these people. And they are taking their kids to every kind of after school program and every kind of class and lesson and they are overbooking four year olds. It's too much.

Kassia Binkowski
Back to rapid fire. How many kids do you have?

Sabrina Merage Naim
I have two. Sienna is four and Remy is two. How many kids do you have?

Kassia Binkowski
A dozen.

Sabrina Merage Naim
It feels like?

Kassia Binkowski
It feels like, yes. Feels like a circus. Three. I have a four year old and two year old twins.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Right. And for those who are listening who wish that they could have twins and just get over it?

Kassia Binkowski
Take it back.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, just have one pregnancy with two kids. Kassia will say...

Kassia Binkowski
I really love my children. And also... and maybe I'll be singing a different song and a few years. Two year olds are hard. Two of them is exponentially harder. I wouldn't wish twins on anybody, despite how much I love my children. I'm sorry, Zola and Ollie when you have to listen to this.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yes. Love you, and I'm sorry, but it's hard. We're doing our best. All right. Okay, I want to know, if you could go on a celebrity date with anyone?

Kassia Binkowski
I'm the worst celebrities, Sabrina. Celebrity date?

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah.

Kassia Binkowski
With anyone?

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yes.

Kassia Binkowski
So here's something you don't know about me. I really like old men. I don't know, I have a thing for old men. I think they're charming. I think they know so many things. I think they're like so... they don't really give a fuck anymore. And I love that, I find that very endearing. So I think it would be like a Robert Redford.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Ah, okay.

Kassia Binkowski
Yeah.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Robert Redford. Can we just talk? That man in his heyday was gorgeous.

Kassia Binkowski
Only got better with age.

Sabrina Merage Naim
And, I mean, I may argue that a little bit. I still, to be fair, I still think that he's a very good looking man. And I do think that he has that charm and charisma that is like, oh, hello.

Kassia Binkowski
And like a little bit cowboy, a little bit Western. I also have a thing for cowboys. So he's kind of the perfect intersection of these things.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Wow. I love that.

Kassia Binkowski
What would yours be?

Sabrina Merage Naim
That was a really good answer. Now I'm rethinking my answer. Because I... So look, I could say someone young and sexy like Chris Evans.

Kassia Binkowski
I don't even know who that is.

Sabrina Merage Naim
You don't? I'm sure you don't know. That's Captain America. You don't watch Avengers movies, I know. I'm gonna force you to look him up after.

Kassia Binkowski
Oh, I will.

Sabrina Merage Naim
But in terms of like the older man who gets sexier with age, the George Clooney's of the world.

Kassia Binkowski
Yeah, I mean, you can't ever go wrong. It's a timeless answer.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Okay, so I want to, as you can tell by now in this conversation, that there's a lot that Kassia and I don't know about each other. Which is kind of funny, given that we've gone down this road, and we're on this adventure of creating this show and really elevating the voices and stories of women around the world. We talk so much more about other people than we do about ourselves. So let's talk about how we came to be, how we came together.

Kassia Binkowski
Tell the story. I want to hear your, it's kind of like a marriage question. I want to hear your side of this.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, yes. Okay, so I have a foundation that was founded in 2008. I have been a philanthropist since then, which is kind of funny to say, because that was also around the time that I was graduating from college and frantically looking for a job at the height of the Great Recession. And what I really cared about was that. Just being like a normal grown person in society. But meanwhile, it was kind of bestowed upon me by my grandmother. And so whether I liked it or not, this was a new chapter of my life. And it ended up being one of the most beautiful gifts that I could ever imagine, because it expanded my capacity to help people and to dive into areas that I really care about separate of myself. So I have been investing alongside, giving my time, my resources, sitting on boards, in areas that I really care about, and the areas, frankly, that I've been caring about for the last decade, and some is bridging the divides that keep growing between us. Whether it's racially, religiously, culturally, politically, socially, regardless. And it feels like those divides are getting bigger and bigger. And so I'm investing in creating thriving communities, and having conversations between people who may not agree with each other, and who may not always have the same experiences, but need to hear each other stories to create a sense of empathy, understanding awareness, and create space for people who are not like you, and who don't think like you. And my confession is that that is also a constant challenge for me. Specifically in the political landscape. But we were rebranding, it's the Sabrina Mirage Foundation, and we were rebranding and we needed a digital branding and marketing company that could help us think through how we wanted to wake up this kind of sleepy brand that I had been doing very little to put at the forefront and that was you. And One K Creative, which is your your firm. And so we came together to... really we came together kind of in this contract, right? Agreement with the needs of the foundation and your expertise and kind of the not for profit, social impact branding and communications space, which was a really beautiful marriage of need and services. And so you helped me create a new logo, rethink the communication strategy, build a website and I really enjoyed working with you, it was really refreshing.

Kassia Binkowski
And then I just wouldn't go away.

Sabrina Merage Naim
And you wouldn't go away.

Kassia Binkowski
I just kept knocking.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yes.

Kassia Binkowski
So yeah, so we wrapped up that contract, built this brand while simultaneously my studio One K was also producing a different podcast, which no longer exists. I'm sure the episodes are out there in the ether somewhere, but we're no longer producing the show, called Good and Social. And that, for us, was a great guinea pig experiment. We love producing social impact content and had never done a podcast. And to be honest, I loved being kind of in over my head a little bit. I've loved learning a new medium. And selfishly, I loved sitting down to have conversations with fascinating people. What a cool opportunity podcasting is in that regard. So we bootstrapped that show, produced it for a year without any funding, loved every minute of it, but knew that we couldn't just keep... they're expensive. It's a ton of time and resources to produce a good show. And so I knew that we couldn't continue that one on. But also knew that Sabrina might be interested in exploring this intersection of storytelling and creativity and impact. Having done the branding work for your foundation, I knew that that might be of interest and so came knocking to see if that collaboration could work.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, and the reason why Kassia knew that that's something that I would be interested in is because I had started, as a subsidiary of the foundation, I started Evoke Media.

Kassia Binkowski
But you hadn't yet.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I had.

Kassia Binkowski
No.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Really?

Kassia Binkowski
This was like, so this conversation about the podcast was like exactly a year ago. You had not yet founded Evoke.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Oh, you're refreshing my memory. Okay.

Kassia Binkowski
So you had not yet founded Evoke, it was a very right time, right place serendipitous conversation about podcasting. You had been kind of curious about it for a while, it sounded like or at least that's what you told me.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yes. I had been investing in documentaries.

Kassia Binkowski
Yes. You had, exactly, you had been doing documentaries. That's why you thought this kind of creative media space was of interest.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Good memory, good memory.

Kassia Binkowski
And so long story short, rather than resuscitate that show, we kind of found this perfect intersection of interests and decided to produce a totally new one. And who knows what, I mean, maybe this was on your radar already. But you ended up founding Evoke Media, your subsidiary of Sabrina Merage Foundation, as a way to fund these media ventures that all have social impact motivations. So documentary films and the podcast and who knows what else that will bring down the pipeline?

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, it was really an opportunity to leverage the belief that storytelling is such an impactful way of furthering the mission of what we were trying to do and also to identify areas of social impact that were really important to me, and to do that through storytelling. Whereas more traditional philanthropy can sometimes be multigenerational in scope. Like you're hoping that the impact, that the work that you're doing today will change the world for tomorrow, for your kids, your grandkids, you don't know how long it's gonna take, but it takes time. Whereas documentaries, or other types of media opportunities are in your face. It's a story that really pulls at your heartstrings. Hopefully, if it's told well, it opens your eyes to issues that maybe you weren't aware of before. It has the ability to reach potentially millions of viewers. And that, to me, was really interesting. And so I had started investing in these documentaries that touched on areas that I thought were really important, and doing it in a way through storytelling that created better understanding and empathy of these issues. And, Breaking Glass became a beautiful marriage of that as well. And I had actually been looking for something that was more specifically women's issues, women's stories. And it became part of the conversation with you in this podcast that this is the platform to do that. And now we have like 30 some recordings under our belt and we have spoken with women all over the world, and men.

Kassia Binkowski
What is your goal for the show, Sabrina?

Sabrina Merage Naim
You know, I talk to people who still don't realize what women go through to get to where they want to get to. Right? They don't know the challenges, the barriers, the struggles, the trauma, the above and beyond that women have to experience in order to just be on par with their male counterparts in industries all over the world. In industries, across the board and in countries all over the world and societies, and people need to know, people need to understand in order to start changing the paradigm. To me, it's a matter of peeling back these layers of exposure and awareness, and frankly, that became true for me.

Kassia Binkowski
Yeah I was gonna say for us. I think every episode has done that for us in some way.

Sabrina Merage Naim
100%. That there are conversations that I may go into thinking I know a lot about XYZ topic. And I come away thinking, wow, I didn't know shit. Right? I learned so much from that, I was able to open my eyes to the experiences of someone else in a way that I don't know how I would have done otherwise. We don't have this kind of exposure to women's experiences around the world. What they go through, what they have to struggle through to become titans of industry. The doctors, the survivors, the best of the best. Even if they're not, even if it's just their experience, even if it is, let me tell you about my experience, and that is so eye opening. And it takes opening your eyes to then be able to go into the next phase of trying to make this world more loving and nurturing for women.

Kassia Binkowski
Well, I think what's really interesting about doing this all via podcasting is that it creates this space for really intimate conversation and connection around very complex issues. So like, every one of our guests to date has been tackling something big and messy and complicated and deeply rooted in cultures and systems. And yet, we get to have these very candid conversations, and these one on one connections. And podcasting is a very cool platform to do that in, to be able to strip back something really complicated and just connect woman to woman on a really personal level.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, and I do want to just, again, highlight what you said before, which is to be able to produce a show like this in the way that we wanted to with the quality that we that we wanted to, is super hard.

Kassia Binkowski
Yep, it is.

Sabrina Merage Naim
It's very time consuming. And the resources and the funds. And you know, we both have jobs and families that are completely separate of this.

Kassia Binkowski
Yeah. And it's also been really fun and challenging to do it remotely. Like producing a global show means that we have to relinquish a lot of control, and that we're navigating time zones and equipment and technology and all of these different elements that I think A) affect the show B) affect the conversation. I don't know it's fun, it's challenging. It's still a new medium for both of us, which I think it's fun to learn alongside one another in that regard. I think we both bring a lot of different life experience to it. You know, my husband's about to walk in the door, for example. He's desperate to get back to his office that I kicked him out of.

Sabrina Merage Naim
My kids just walked in. I'm like shaking my finger at my daughter who's about to knock on the office door.

Kassia Binkowski
Here he comes.

Sabrina Merage Naim
But you know what? Look, I think it's interesting for people to hear that you and I have only met each other in person one time.

Kassia Binkowski
True.

Sabrina Merage Naim
And part of that is because of the pandemic. And part of that is because of our distance. And because we use technology to connect. But how interesting is that? Like we've produced this whole show, we've spoken to dozens of people. We talk multiple times a week, but we've only met once.

Kassia Binkowski
Yeah, it's a whole new world. I mean, think about the things that we're going to do. We can only go one way from here.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Big things.

Kassia Binkowski
So many things.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So on that note with all of the background noise, with the husbands and the kids and the dog and everything that just, you know, decided to rain on our parade. We just wanted to give a little bit of a peek behind the curtain on who we are. And we'll be doing these every once in a blue moon.

Kassia Binkowski
To be continued.

Sabrina Merage Naim
To reflect more deeply on the episodes that we put out there. How we have experienced them, how we've grown from them, what we've learned, and sometimes the questions we wish that we had asked or the conversations that we wish we would have pushed harder on. Because it sometimes takes that distance from a conversation to reflect a little bit more on it and be like, damn, if only we had talked about this a little more.

Kassia Binkowski
Yeah. So let this, this will be the space to do that.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah. And thank you for joining us and thank you for listening and see you next time.

Kassia Binkowski
Thanks for listening.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Breaking Glass is a production of Evoke Media. Evoke is a nonprofit organization that exists in order to elevate the people and stories that are working to make the world a more unified and equitable place. Learn more at weareevokemedia.com

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