Purity culture, sex, and pleasure

Chrissy Powers Transcript

Sabrina Merage Naim
From Evoke Media I'm Sabrina Merage Naim, with me is Kassia Binkowski, and this is Breaking Glass - a series of conversations with women around the world who are shattering glass ceilings and challenging social norms. They are audacious, gutsy, and their stories are echoed across borders and generations in a rallying cry that is changing the narrative for women everywhere. Today's conversation takes us to San Diego, California where we're speaking with Chrissy Powers. Chrissy is a wife, a mom, a marriage and family therapist, a podcast host and a writer. And while we could dive into any one of those topics, today's conversation is all about sex. To be clear, it's actually about the messy intersection of sex and religion, which is way jucier. This is a topic we've been wanting to talk about for a long time. And one we're really excited to unpack with Chrissy.

Kassia Binkowski
Yes, Sabrina. And more specifically, we're talking about Chrissy's upbringing in the evangelical Christian church, and the pressure she experienced to be pure, to save herself for marriage. She's unpacking everything from the sex talks she had with her father, the shame she felt around her own body to the purity agreement that she signed and the mental health issues she struggled with as a young adult. Sex was tied up in all of that. And now as a therapist, Chrissy is reflecting on purity culture and our relationship to sex and pleasure, as both wives and as women. Take a listen.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Hi, Chrissy, thank you so much for joining us. We're excited to have you.

Chrissy Powers
Thank you so much.

Sabrina Merage Naim
We are really interested in having this conversation, mostly because we've been wanting to talk about sex and sexuality for a long time. But the context I think of this conversation shines a light on female sexuality in a way that is kind of a unique angle. And I'm really interested in exploring that a little bit. Mostly from your background, your upbringing, and I think it's really relatable for a lot of people. So I want to start the conversation by having you read an excerpt from your blog, if you would, you recently wrote a post titled pleasure and purity. Please read the first paragraph for us and set the stage for this conversation.

Chrissy Powers
Yes, okay. It's 1997. I was an impressionable 13 year old sitting in youth group at church, feeling the weight of the world on my shoulders. We were learning about the sacredness of sex, and how all good Christians wait to have it until they're married. We signed a purity agreement, wore our rings, and took pride in our decision to remain pure. I'm still proud, I didn't give myself away to any Joe Schmo. But I'm just now learning that there were negative effects of carrying that much pressure.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So this blog was the reason why we wanted to really have this conversation with you, in addition to your extensive experience and background, as a family and marriage therapist, but really, it was your personal experience that drew us into wanting to kind of peel back the layers of your experience growing up. So paint us a picture of your childhood, what was your family's relationship to religion growing up?

Chrissy Powers
Yeah. Very religious, very evangelical Christian. The church I went to was very small. It was like a family, which I loved. I loved the community part of it. I loved feeling like I belonged to a group. But there was a lot of pressure to be some perfect girl, I would say. And my dad was actually one of the pastors at the church. So there was additional pressure to be a perfect family. And to not ever do anything wrong, that would shame my parents. So that was my upbringing, and I say it with like, I see the pressure now as an adult doing emotional work. But as a child, it was idealic in a sense. But the work I do as a therapist now, I really go back and learn how anxiety can grow in to adulthood from the pressures that we put on children. And so a lot of that anxiety that I have now, I believe kind of grew in a petri dish of perfectionism and expectation. I by no means would say that I had a horrible childhood at all, I had like one of the best ones, I still have an amazing relationship with my parents. But it's grown. And it's because of that, that I have a good relationship with them. And my faith has grown. I have not departed from faith. I've had to deconstruct things that I learned as a child that no longer serve me as an adult, though.

Kassia Binkowski
So we're going to get into all of these things. And we're excited to dive into them. I'm curious how much power, how much influence did religion have over how you were parented? The messages you were receiving about what was right and wrong? What was expected of you? How much did that come from the church?

Chrissy Powers
I feel like religion did play a big part in our upbringing and my parents' parenting, I would say 90% of it. But I feel like I had the rebellious parents that were like, "no, we're going to give our kids experiences and we're not going to homeschool them". And once they got into the church parenting program, it's called Growing Kids God's Way, they were like, what is this, we're not doing this with our kids, but a lot of parents did. In our church, and in that, you know, community. So I feel like I did have really conscious parents for the most part, which wasn't really a thing back then in the 80s and 90s. Conscious parenting just wasn't a thing. It was very authoritarian. Very much. I said so, do this because I said so. What was available to them was very limited.

Kassia Binkowski
And I think that's an important frame to put on desk conversation, right? As you know, I think every parent is doing the best they can with what they have, and the community that they're in and the messages that they're receiving. And so this is in no way to discredit anybody's approaches. You know, though the community that they were a part of. I want to take this right into the heart of the conversation now, which is about sex. And admittedly, it's really hard for me to take myself back to age 13. And try to remember what I knew or didn't know about sex. And I grew up in a house where my parents never had the formal talk with us. They were available to us if we had questions, but there was never a formal sit down that happened. What messages were you receiving and hearing at home with regards to sexuality and intimacy? I mean, we started the conversation with your experience at the church and signing this purity agreement, which we'll get into, but what how were these being reiterated at home? What were you seeing modeled for you?

Chrissy Powers
I remember my brother getting the sex talk. Because he got to go to my dad's office. And there were these tapes, these cassette tapes, like a whole book of them. And I was like, so intrigued. I was like, What are you guys doing back there? And my dad was like, my mom and dad were like, this is not for you yet. Like this is you know, Josh's time to you know, learn about something. I was like, okay, so I knew it was something like special, because they got this time away with my dad. And it was these tapes, I'm sure it was probably from Focus on the Family of what to listen to, and how to tell someone about, you know, a boy about sex. When it came to my turn, to learn about it, I was in fifth grade. And I had heard from a friend at school. And I was so curious, and I came home and I said, Mom, is this really how babies are made? And she's like, Okay, I guess it's time to tell you. So she sat me down.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Fifth grade is pretty young. That's what, 10 years old?

Chrissy Powers
Yeah, that was about 10. I was really confused. So it's kind of in steps, I think. But she told me around that time, this is how, you know, babies are made. And this is, you know, it's for marriage. It's good. They always said it was a good thing. It was a beautiful thing. But it was just for marriage. And that's what God created it for. But there was no talk on the relationship to my body. To like, what I would experience in my own body of like, why would that feel good? Or maybe when you watch something now, you're growing up, you'll feel things, you know, down there and that might feel good, and that's okay. So when it came to that there was a lot of shame, that that felt good. Because I wasn't married. I kept thinking, Oh, no, like this is bad. And you know, there's a verse in the Bible that says "do not waken".

Sabrina Merage Naim
But I just want to call out what you're talking about, which is masturbation.

Chrissy Powers
Yes.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So okay, let's just pull that apart for a second. You were still a virgin, you're not talking about sex with men, you're talking about pleasure in your own body. And that's something that was not discussed, it was not, and I think, frankly, whether people are religious or not, it's something that is very kind of absent from sexuality and speaking about sex. What was that like for you? When did you experience that? If you don't mind kind of talking even about your personal experience? Like, when did you decide that was something you were going to explore and talk about that shame?

Chrissy Powers
Yeah. Not actually, until recently, when I wrote this blog post, and my husband and I kind of have been doing this work in our own personal therapy. And we're both like, holy crap, like, we have carried so much shame into our marriage around pleasure. And I felt that because at an early age, probably around 10, I was like, oh my gosh, my body can feel this way, like feel this good? And, you know, when you touch herself, it just was like, mind blowing, but it was very confusing for a little girl to feel or not little, I was probably preteen. But it was just confusing, because I thought, I'm not married. What did I just do? Am I still pure? All of those thoughts swirled in my mind. I'm sure my brother got the talk about it because he was a boy. But as a woman, no one really talked to me about how my body can feel pleasure and how that's my birthright. Like, that's okay, to feel pleasure. I do think a lot of times when, you know, that old way of thinking was like, oh no, let's not teach women about their bodies, because then they'll go crazy and make bad choices.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Right and there's such a disconnect between the way that sex is spoken to, for boys and for girls, even at a young age. So let's just kind of rewind for a second, you're in middle school, when your dad brings home, a purity ring, and begins to really impress upon you the idea of saving yourself until marriage. I think that that's something that a lot of young kids would have a hard time with.

Kassia Binkowski
I would have a hard time with that. Like, the notion of having a sex talk with my dad, whom I love dearly and am very close to makes me cringe.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yes. And I think even, I mean, I'm very close with my dad, and I have had those conversations with my dad. But it's still very uncomfortable. And I think for a lot of young girls, that the idea of talking to your dad at a young age about sex is definitely cringe worthy, but you had a very different kind of relationship and experience with your dad. But it was very specifically about abstinence. It wasn't like, let's talk about sexuality and your body and you know, pleasure. It wasn't any of that. So for those of us who didn't grow up with that kind of culture, can you break it down for us? What is considered a sin? Is it sex? Was it also masturbation? You say you didn't know at the time. Like, I'm guessing that it wasn't explicitly explained to you. What about the idea of tempting men like you talked about in your blog? Whether it was knowingly or unknowingly? What exactly did this purity agreement entail?

Chrissy Powers
Yeah. So when my dad gave me the ring, I had just turned 13. And with it came, I didn't sign anything. I just gave him a promise. Like, this is me promising my dad that I will protect myself and save myself for marriage. And he had just come home from this Promise Keepers conference, which is this men's conference, where they really just pumped these men up with like, how to be the best dads and fathers. And so he came home and he had this new like spirit about him a little bit. But I also was really close to my dad, still am. So I felt so incredibly loved. Like it was my first piece of jewelry. And I was like, this is like, wow, like I'm really special, that my dad would do this and that he would want to protect me in that way. So I felt really special. But that's why it was also confusing. Because as an adult now I'm like, oh my gosh, that's really a lot to put on a 13 year old, because I could never, in my mind want to hurt my dad. So my body then was tied to my dad's approval, and so I didn't realize that until I was an adult. And then the whole contract thing that was like a total youth group experience where everybody was like, we would get the talk, they would show the rose that's like, you know, this is you, and then, you know, you pass the rows around, the rose gets all, you know, muddled and weathered. And it's like, that's you giving yourself, that's what you have left. So that was very much a cultural thing. And youth group at the time, it was a mix of it all, you know, it was a mix of like, yes, I had this ring to remind me that I had to stay pure until marriage and pure was, it was confusing. It wasn't definitely laid out, like, masturbation is bad. No one really talked about it, they just kind of alluded to it being bad. So I never knew I was like, oh, if I have an orgasm by myself, does that mean I'm not a virgin anymore? Like questions like that would circle in my mind, and made me feel guilty, and just helped continue to divide myself further from my body.

Kassia Binkowski
So this is fascinating to me, it could not be more different from the way I grew up where religion really wasn't present in my in my family. I'm curious with this much cultural pressure and community pressure, like this is what you knew these were this was the community you were a part of, was there a moment that you can remember when your world opened up a bit wider than that? When you realized that the choices that you were making and that you were being told were the right choices were not, in fact, the choices that everybody was making? You know, was that high school? Was that college? Was there a moment for you where your community got bigger, and you realized that this maybe wasn't the norm?

Chrissy Powers
I wouldn't say it happened until after college, I went to a small Christian college, so the culture was still very much the same. And yeah, I wouldn't say it was until after, that I kind of had my rebellious years of, you know, going out in my twenties, with friends, and, you know, going on some dates, and then doing things that I regretted, like, oh, that was too far, or, oh, what did I do? Like, did I just defile myself more? Am I less pure for my husband, even though we didn't have sex, you know, he did this or that. It was like, there were things that I really struggled with in my twenties because of that. But I always had such strong boundaries around sex. I always knew, I just was just, there was a script, and something that I had promised, myself, my God, my dad, and my future husband. I just was like, no, like, this is who I am. It was so much a part of my identity, that I could never cross that line. But I would feel an immense amount of guilt when it came close to it.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, and I'm very taken with your statement about how your relationship to your body was very much tied to pleasing your father and your father's approval, which I think is a really powerful thing to acknowledge. And we'll get into how that caused anxiety and other kinds of issues later, but you're describing this culture you grew up in where sex was shameful, where your value as a woman was very much attached to your purity and perfection. And you were being told that if you so much as tempted a man that you were responsible for his sins as well, which I think is something in terms of pressure in terms of what we as girls are told that, you know, for men, it's nature, right? But you wrote, if I'm too sexy, I'm sinning. But if I'm not sexy enough, I won't find the one. How did that pressure impact your mental health in your late teens and twenties?

Chrissy Powers
I developed an eating disorder. I had depression. I had panic attacks starting at age 18. That I just now realize, oh, that's just not biological. It's maybe a little biological. You know, I know what my family line is like, but I now know that like, that much pressure, to be perfect to not step out a line to also be a certain way so that you can have what you want is just a prerequisite for anxiety, you know, or a threshold of other diagnosis, you know, like, what I had in college, an eating disorder. There was four girls to every guy at my college and we were all, we were like looking for the one. I just wanted to fit in so badly and be loved, and find that person. And it was stressful, and I found so much worth and control with eating and exercise that I developed an eating disorder. Yeah, from age 18 to 25.

Sabrina Merage Naim
We recently had a conversation with a fashion photographer in Australia who did an incredible project called This Is Me, photographing women in their bathing suits, in all their glory, completely unretouched. And then there are stories about, there's context associated with these photos, and the one that I spoke to was a young girl who talked about how she struggled with eating disorders and anxiety. And when trying to understand why, she recognized that she wanted to hurt someone, and it was easiest to hurt herself for all of the pain that she endured. And I wonder if you now that you are in a healthier place, and look back at that time, do you ever consider the control is definitely one part of that. But was it easier to hurt yourself during that time of your life than to hurt anyone else or to really acknowledge what was going on?

Chrissy Powers
Yeah, I really can identify with that because it wasn't acceptable to hurt anybody else, wasn't acceptable to rebel, and make bad choices and be careless. So it was acceptable, to not eat and to run really far, and to get really skinny, and to look really good. And that was praised. So I thought, yes, I'm just that much closer to getting my dream life. Because I got the dream body, I got the persona down. I'm good enough for a man now, because I don't, you know, I look really good. And so yeah, it wasn't acceptable to hurt anybody else, but myself. And in that time, it wasn't seen as that, I thought, I was like I'm doing the right thing. I'm doing good.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Now, as a marriage and family therapist, you're able to kind of take a step back and look at the purity culture through a professional lens. And I'm curious how ill prepared young women are to cope with that purity pressure, in the same way that you kind of experienced when it's in direct conflict with America's own cultural tendency to hyper sexualize women. Can you speak to that?

Chrissy Powers
Oh, yeah, I have a few clients actually, that are dealing with the same thing, like, grew up similar backgrounds. And all, you know, we've just transferred that pressure into career, and motherhood. And so I see these very driven women that just don't know when to stop and say, I am enough, I have done enough, I don't need to please anymore, I don't need to do any more. I can enjoy my life. And that's, you know, what we work on in therapy, a lot of the times is just deconstructing these old beliefs that have become a programming in our brain. But yeah, in terms of the outside influence of hypersexuality. It's also on the flip side, I have worked with a lot of women that have been raped, and didn't know that it wasn't their fault. And that, for me, is the most heartbreaking, or they didn't know the boundaries, and they thought, well, I wore that really short dress, or that really short skirt to that party and I shouldn't have and, you know, it's probably, I probably did something. And you know, we have to really deconstruct that and say that this by no means was your fault, just because you're attractive, and you're beautiful. You know, and so that's where I see the cultural aspect and society's hypersexuality of women, hurting the women that didn't know that there were boundaries around that.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Which speaks speaks to your experience as a young girl going to church in short shorts and this woman saying, you know, you're going to make a man stumble. Like it's your fault if a man looks at you in a certain way, or if a man you know, even acts on it in a certain way that you are inviting that kind of behavior and when we get those messages, even as such young girls, and then later on, God forbid you're in a situation where you are sexually assaulted or raped. How can we not, you know, move away from that mentality that it's our fault?

Kassia Binkowski
Yeah, It's fascinating that, you take church out of it for a second, like growing up as a little girl in America, you're getting that from somewhere, we're all getting it from somewhere right? That, you know, sense of responsibility. And that pressure to be responsible for the choices that men are making around us. We're all getting that from somewhere. Let's fast forward for a second, eventually you meet and marry your husband, Sam, he also grew up in purity culture, and you two have been very public about the fact that you were both virgins, you both saved yourself for marriage. I would love to hear how that culture that you grew up in, which attached so much shame to sex. How did that ultimately impact your relationship with intimacy as a married woman once that threshold had been crossed finally? What unfolded and kind of what are those early years of marriage look like for you guys?

Chrissy Powers
It looked like just getting to marriage and then sex, and then being like, whoa, was that it?

Kassia Binkowski
Wow, like all of that for this?

Chrissy Powers
Is there more to it? Yeah, that was good. All of that. And we joke all the time. We're like, man, we missed out on the best sex of our life...not true. It's not true. We're having the best sex of our life now, after we're done having children. And we're like, actually having fun. But we were like, we should have had sex before we were married. Man, that one time we were making out and we just wanted to do it and we didn't, like we just joke all the time about that. But yeah, we do. We saved ourselves for each other and mostly out of, you know, duty, or whatever. The purity culture drilled into us. But um, yeah, the first years of marriage, we fought a lot. We had so many issues around, like, when we were gonna have kids, and when you know, can we go on this trip and money. And so a lot of that became, like, infiltrated into the bedroom. And it was boring. Yeah, sex for us for many years was boring, and was just all about procreation, which led to stress. And so it wasn't really until we were done having our third baby that we were like, hey, you know, it was mostly my husband was like, I took this sex quiz, and this is the type I am like, do you want to take it? And I'm like, that's silly, why are you doing that? And then I'm like, no, it's not silly. Actually, this is a big part of our life. Why are we not exploring more? So it really was his kind of spearheading like, or he would buy me a toy. And he'd be like, I bought you this. And I'd be like, okay, you're just so funny. And then we'd start using it. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, like, thank God, my husband's so open minded. And so into researching this area of our lives together, because it's made our relationship so much better.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So you were able to kind of disentangle that shame and the guilt from sex and pleasure, mostly because your husband was gently nudging you along. And when did you get to a place where I mean, it sounds like it was kind of slowly, one thing at a time, but when did you get to a place where you're like, no, actually, I'm going to write about it, and talk about my experience, and recognize that sex should be you know, also for pleasure and can be fun, and you can have toys, and you can like, bring all of these things that were so scandalous for so many years?

Chrissy Powers
Yeah. It has to do with my husband nudging me, and I didn't even realize I needed it. I thought it was fine. I was like, oh, I'm great. I'm, you know, I'm totally okay. And then I was like, oh, no, I'm not. Like, I was not okay with certain things in the bedroom, until he started nudging me along. And then in therapy, I'd be like, why do I feel silly? Why do I feel like I'm faking sexiness? I always feel like I'm faking it. And I'm like, why can't I just be okay with like, being a freaking goddess in the bedroom? I felt like I was playing a role. And in the beginning, sometimes you kind of have to, like, pretend. And then you'd be like, oh, that was fun. Like, I can actually be that. But it also had to do with a lot of my trauma therapy and getting trained in trauma and embodiment work. That really helped me unlock my body. So I was trained by Michaela Bowen, she wrote this amazing book called The Wild Woman's Way. And I got trained in this nonlinear movement because I thought, this is the last thing little Chrissy would ever think she would do as an adult, and now I am like doing this. It's like so many people would call it woo-woo. But I'm like, no, it's no different than yoga, I'm just not telling you what to do, I'm allowing your body to move how it needs to. And when we do that, we unlock the body's wisdom, we unlock areas that have been tense and tight and stuck for years. So I would do this nonlinear movement. And most of the time, I noticed I wanted to move my hips. I just felt so good to move my hips all the time. And we would do these hour long sessions. And I realized I was unlocking so much shame that was attached to my hips, and to that area of my body. And as women, the more you read about our bodies and femininity, there's so much power held in that area. I believe it's the sacral chakra, I think, or I should know this, but yeah, that whole area is filled with energy and power. But I had suppressed it for so long, like even dancing. I was like, I don't know how to dance like this. And I'm like, I look at Latin women, and you know, like that one Super Bowl that Shakira and Jennifer Lopez were in, and they were just moving their hips. I'm like, that is amazing. That is power, that is them owning their femininity. And I was laughing at all the backlash they got. And most of it was sort of like uptight, Christian women that I know that were like, oh, wow, what are they doing? I'm like, that's their right. Like, you're just jealous that you don't have that freedom to move that way. Because it's so freeing when you can allow your body to move how it wants to move.

Kassia Binkowski
So I want to bring this full circle, how has that growth that you've done and the very clearly like hard work that you've done to get to that place impacted your relationship with the church that you were raised in? Like how have you reconciled your Christian upbringing with who you are now and what you believe? All of the beliefs you have around sexuality and femininity?

Sabrina Merage Naim
Especially when those Christian women who you know, come out and are criticizing Shakira and Jennifer Lopez, but you know, that the freedom of being feminine and the freedom of being true to your own body and your sexuality is a whole different, you know, playing field, how do you talk to those people? You came from there, you know them.

Chrissy Powers
Yeah. Uh, I've had to put up some boundaries, for sure. I've gotten some messages from those people that are like, you're going on a slippery slope, you're doing this and that, and I'm like, but I'm not, I'm closer to God than I've ever been. I just understand God differently than you do maybe now. And there are the beliefs and the core beliefs that I've held on to, those don't change. Like my belief in God and my relationship with with God, that has never changed, but my relationship to the culture, to the patriarchal Western church, that has changed, and maybe those women don't understand that, and that's okay. Because now I'm like, it's not my job to even explain anything to them about where I'm at. And then when you're doing any sort of spiritual work or awakening of any sort, it's not your job to explain it to anybody, like you're still trying to understand it. So I just tell people all the time, you have freedom to like, you know, not say anything to anybody and to not have to explain yourself. So with people like that, I just bless and release, like, you know, okay, you do your thing, like I just see, I can see with more clarity of how they're locked up. And I feel sad that you know, those kind of women then but don't really get to experience the pleasure joy with their partners, that sex can bring. And then, in terms of church, like with the one I grew up in, I actually kind of look at it now as like, the people in it that I grew up with, they were and still are like family. And incidentally, they've been some of the least judgmental people, because they've seen me grow. But in the church in general, the patriarchal Christian church, that I've had to kind of exit out of and find my own way of feeling connected to, you know, I feel like I'm a Christian misfit now. Like I'm connected to other Christian misfits that we're like, really trying to figure out how to how do we be, like God's people? How do we, you know, some of the people that you would think are the best Christians are not the nicest people. And I really had to do some work around that, especially last year during COVID, it really came out more than ever. So yeah, I had issues with women in the church, not women, specifically, women's role in the church. And from an early age, I knew it was wrong. I was told in an early age that women cannot speak in the church, when they cannot lead a man. And I would debate at like, I was 14 years old. And I would debate with my family at dinner time. And I'd say this is wrong. Like, why can't... I'm just as equal as you? And then they would simply, yeah, of course, you're equal. But this is just your role. And it was very limiting spiritually.

Kassia Binkowski
What was your mom's take on that? How did your mom respond to that?

Chrissy Powers
My mom, I love her. She said, "I don't need to speak. I know, I'm powerful". I am behind my husband.

Kassia Binkowski
I love that.

Chrissy Powers
I know, and that is so my mom. She's so powerful, but yet doesn't need to stand up and speak to a crowd of people. I do. That's me. I'm much more like my father. I just happened to be a woman. But so I'd sit there and listen to my mom be so powerful. I knew she was powerful in the church, she ran that thing. And I'm like, I want to be like that, I kept trying to be like that, I tried to be calm or quiet or gentle or not need the limelight. But that was just denying so much of who God made me to be. I was meant to have a microphone, you know. And so as a woman or girl in the church, I was like, okay to be told that that's not what I should want. That also hindered me. So I don't go to any church now that doesn't believe women are equal to men in terms of, they can speak, they can lead, they can have the title pastor. I mean, we're kind of church shopping right now. And that was the first thing I asked them because I have a daughter. And I'm not going to let her sit anywhere where she feels like she doesn't have a voice, or that she's not represented.

Kassia Binkowski
Yeah, where she's less than.

Chrissy Powers
Yeah, representation matters. It 100% matters. So I want to see women speak in church.

Sabrina Merage Naim
What I love about what you're saying is that I think so many people who have gone through the kind of existential like evolution that you have been and continue to experience tend to completely separate themselves from their religion, or their church or their faith or whatever that connected them at some point in their youth. And that may be right for many people, but what you're saying is that you have been able to find a way to evolve as an individual, as a couple, as a family. And that doesn't necessarily mean that you need to disconnect from your spirituality, which is so clearly something that is very important to you, and your family. And, you know, I'm Jewish. And so it's like a bit of a different kind of, you know, it's, it's a little same, same but different. And one of the things that we grew up with, is that you really are mandated to struggle with God on everything, not the idea of God's existence, but to struggle with, why do we have to do certain things? Why is this important? What does it mean? How does it impact me? How do I evolve? How do my traditions, my belief system, my faith, how does it evolve? Because you should be evolving as an individual, whether it's in your religion, as a person, as a woman, in your marriage, as a mother, I mean, in your work, whatever that is. Stagnation is death, right? So I want to understand now. You have said that you don't regret waiting until marriage to have sex and the purity ring that your dad gave you. And faith and tradition, still, like I said, are so clearly deeply important to you. What would you say to our listeners who still struggle with parts of religion that don't seem to give us the messages that pleasure is a beautiful part of life and that your relationship to your body is a human necessity? How do we fit these two things together, when the messages we seem to be getting from religion and from culture seem to be so different?

Chrissy Powers
Whatever you're feeling is okay. You will continue to grow, just don't stop growing. And then I would say, let's change it. Let's be the people, I am a big fan of like, if you don't like something in a system, you don't just necessarily leave the system forever. Like, yes, if you can't be in the system, and it's abusive, leave it. But let's change it. So that's kind of where I'm at now with church and religion is like, let's make it inclusive. Let's make it, let's change the way we talk about sex in the church. That's why my husband and I are so passionate about talking about it now, because we're like, no one's really talking about this like, and when we had our premarital class, it did not set us up, right. And we struggled for so many years. And, yeah, we just really are passionate about changing that system. So I figured that out. And it's actually really healing, to share and talk about it. And then to change it.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I want to just honor your mother for a second, that she knew that she didn't necessarily need to be in the limelight, to feel like a powerful woman, that she didn't need to be at the microphone to feel like a powerful woman. But I also want to honor the fact that you knew that you needed a different path. And that disconnecting yourself from a broken system, isn't going to be helpful in changing that system, I think, is really powerful. And it's the harder path, right? It's definitely, especially with an institution that is so deeply rooted in the history and the patriarchy, like the Christian church. But even if you're able to move that half a percent, or like, point two... whatever, that's progress, and having being part of moving it in a better direction, and a more inclusive and positive direction for men and women, I think, is significantly better than just disengaging completely. When we can, right? When we can.

Kassia Binkowski
So I hear you, I hear you that you're looking for a church and want to be a part of a community for your daughter's sake, where girls see themselves in that leadership and girls have a voice at that table. But what it what about the messages around sexuality that you guys are delivering at home? I mean, what are your expectations? You've got two sons and a daughter? What are your expectations for them? How are you parenting them? And what messages are you passing on? With regards to sex and pleasure and purity as they get older?

Chrissy Powers
We have already started teaching them that their bodies are good. Their bodies are good. Oh, yes, we know you like to touch yourself or whatever, your body is good. We teach them boundaries, you know, when it's appropriate and when it's not. But we're very open about talking about, you know, the body parts and things like that. As age appropriate, you know, as it is. And then when it comes to it, we're going to teach them to be connected to their heart, when it comes to being intimate. That you would know your body, that you protect your body, but no means no. Consent, all of that. And when are you connected to your heart? Oh were you connected to your heart when you did that? Yes? Okay, good. You want to talk about it? Okay, no, were you not connected to your heart? Okay, let's talk about that. Why? Why did you do that? What's going on for you? Did you not know, like, did you feel pressured? So yeah, I feel like there's so much pressure as an adult now, or a parent now to teach our kids to be conscious and to be aware of their bodies. But I feel like if you can help them to understand what feels good in their bodies, and how powerful they are, as like a woman that you're powerful, and that you can actually enjoy that feeling, but also say, no, I'm not ready for that. No, I don't I know my, you know, like, say, you have a teenager and her boyfriend's pressuring her to have sex. Well, are you connected to your heart? Do you want that? If you don't, then no. How do you say no. Because you are precious. And you are worth waiting for, whether that's marriage or not. But I think we're gonna teach them you know how great it is, when you're connected to someone. We still love that, you know, marriage is sacred, and we're gonna teach our kids like how awesome it is and how you can grow with someone when you're married. But I just, I don't feel right putting pressure on them to do what we did to wait. I'm going to, you know, that sounds weird coming out of my mouth, because even just a few years ago, I was stressed about that, like, how am I gonna get my kids to be virgins? And I just I actually had to process it was my therapist. She goes, oh, Chrissy, she said, that's not your job. That's not your job as a parent, and I was like, oh, thank God. Thank God for telling me that. I just was like, I thought that was my job, she's like, no, your job is to teach them to be connected to their heart. And I was like, okay, I can do that.

Sabrina Merage Naim
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