American values, childcare, and an unlikely feminist

David Merage Transcript

Sabrina Merage Naim
From Evoke Media, I'm Sabrina Merage Naim, with me is Kassia Binkowski, and this is Breaking Glass - a series of conversations with women around the world who are shattering glass ceilings and challenging social norms. They are audacious, gutsy, and their stories are echoed across borders and generations in a rallying cry that is changing the narrative for women everywhere.

Sabrina Merage Naim
If you ever had the burning desire to have an honest conversation about feminism with your dad, this one's for you. Kassia and I got to sit down with my father, David Merage, a successful businessman, immigrant and philanthropist, about the women who shaped him, why he's hitching his wagon to early childhood education, and why calling himself a feminist is still a hard pill to swallow.

Kassia Binkowski
Sabrina, this conversation was so much fun. Not only did it feel like I got to challenge my own father on his beliefs and preconceived notions about feminism. But I also enjoyed sitting in on this intimate family conversation. Why is it so easy for older men to want the best for the women they care about, and yet still so hard for them to proudly announce themselves as feminists? Why do we feel the need to repackage issues that clearly disproportionately impact women to be more palatable for men? And how did the term feminist become so alienating to so many people? We certainly weren't shy about challenging David on all of this and more.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Enjoy this special Father's Day edition of Breaking Glass. And just maybe you'll feel compelled to lovingly challenge the men in your life to join us on this journey of women's equity.

Kassia Binkowski
Take a listen.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Hi, dad.

David Merage
Good morning.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Thank you for being with us.

David Merage
I was wondering how you were going to address me.

Sabrina Merage Naim
What should I call you, David? Hello, Mr. Merage. Thank you for joining us today. No, you're my dad, hi. This is definitely a unique opportunity for us. Because as our listeners know, we very often have guests who are women, and many times guests who we don't know. We don't even have...

Kassia Binkowski
Pretty much always.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, almost always we have guests on the show who we maybe have never even spoken to before, which actually lends itself to a more interesting conversation, we just dive right into a recording. That obviously in this case is not so. And frankly, I had to kind of convince you a little bit to do this with us. You were a bit apprehensive about it. But I think it's going to be really interesting. And what we wanted to talk to you about today, in addition to kind of hearing about your upbringing, and your background, and where you came from, and the strong women in your life who helped to shape you, we also kind of want to dig into how we can better sell feminism to the skeptics. And I think that you would have an interesting idea about that. So before we get into that, let's start with where you began. Tell us a little bit about where you're from, and your early years, your upbringing.

David Merage
I was born in Tehran, Iran. And my father was raised in Paris, France, and most of his young adult life he was there. And he had to go from poverty that his family came from. We are Jewish, and as Jews were living at the time, they lived in ghettos. And it wasn't only in Iran, but it was around the world. And he was a self starter man. And he had to leave everything and run away and go back to Iran when he was in his thirties, when the war broke out, and France was going to be occupied. So as a father, he always thought about how his life would have been if he had stayed in France and he had difficulty adjusting to that society. So all the kids except one, and we are five siblings. We all left. Very early on. I left Iran when I was 15. Went to England, and was there for two years, went to United States, I found that the US was home. And that has been the case, the rest of my life.

Kassia Binkowski
So David, I want to interrupt you, because I have so many questions. Sabrina obviously knows all of these things already. First of all, how many boys and how many girls in your family? You're one of five.

David Merage
There are three boys and two girls.

Kassia Binkowski
And second, did you all know that you were going to leave? Were you all like, was that part of the upbringing and the expectation, that you would all leave? Did that come as a surprise? I'm curious kind of around the expectations in your family and the fact that nobody is still there, not your siblings anyway.

David Merage
There was no surprise, it was just a matter of time. Some of us left earlier. And some of them you know, my older brother, he left when he was 18. The second one left when he was 16. My sister left when she was 18. And I was the youngest, I was 15 when I left. The last one which happened to be my younger sister, she was much younger than I and she came with my parents to the United States. So there was no question that this is the way our life is. And we were one of the few unique families at the time, that we all moved, and moved away from the family.

Sabrina Merage Naim
And I just want to address that because most of the Iranian Jews who left, they fled because of the revolution either before, during or after. They had to leave their homes, their businesses, all of their belongings. Many of them were never never able to go back. And that's also the case for us, that we were never able to go back and your family was never able to go back. But what's unique about your family is it was long before the revolution, that your upbringing in Iran, you often talk about it being kind of oppressive, you never felt like you fit in there and your siblings similarly. Why is that, given so many others who were forced to leave, for them, it was home. It was home, they never felt the same way that you did. Why do you think that your family felt differently?

David Merage
Again, I think it had to do with the impact that my father had on us. And his constant talk about his life in France. And he was constantly comparing the culture and the way of life of precision to the Iranians. We actually left Iran in the Golden Ages of Iran. And things got even better after we left. Talking about what was at the time, many of my teachers were women. First grade through ninth grade, which is whenI left. I had many, many women. There were women in many different roles. And even including judges, including business owners, including doctors, and we were very used to that concept. Unfortunately, things changed after the regime changed.

Kassia Binkowski
What about the women in your life? I mean, were your sisters raised with the same opportunities that you boys had? What were the kind of opportunities available to your mother and your grandmothers? What did it look like? I hear you say that, you know, socially there were women and all of these roles. Was that true in your family as well?

David Merage
Well, I want to talk about my grandmother and I will come from her to the later generations. I actually come from a family of very powerful women. My grandmother, Sarah was well known in the community as an activist, she was a savior, she raised not only her kids, but the kids of others. She supported the community. She was loved, and she was respected. Because she couldn't stand. She would not stand for anyone to force others.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Let me just stop you because you can't speak about how Sarah turned into an activist without talking about where she started in her life. So talk about how she got married.

Kassia Binkowski
Yes.

David Merage
She got married when she was 9 years old. And unfortunately, the culture at that time was to give young girls to older men. She actually became a very important person within my grandfather's family, and started doing more and more by the time that she was 13. She became pregnant and lost the first child, which she never forgot. But you can imagine a 13 year old. And it happens around the world today. And it is heartbreaking. She didn't want to talk about it. She didn't want to bring those days up. But we were very close with her.

Sabrina Merage Naim
She told my mom the story of how she kind of got pawned off by her family at such a young age in a way that she never told any of you guys, you or your siblings or anybody. And the story is that little 9 year old Sarah was sitting on the floor of her home playing with dolls. One day her mom picks her up, walks her across town to a house that she'd never been to before. And said, you live here now, and left. And she was obviously traumatized. She was a child, she didn't understand what was happening. And the man who was there, correct me if I'm wrong, Dad, was 28.

David Merage
He was 18.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Oh okay, I thought he was older than that. Okay. Regardless, that's still quite a significant age difference. And he was now her husband, 9 year old Sarah with an 18 year old man. And I just want to kind of clarify that the woman she grew into, from my view was very much because of where she came from, because of the trauma as a child of what she went through, regardless of when we say things like it was the time, it was normal. You know, it doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it okay. It actually just kind of highlights the fact that we excused these types of behaviors that for generations to come, impacted the women. But she was so resilient. She was such a strong woman. I remember very clearly, exactly what you're saying that she was kind of the mama of everybody, that she would help people with their businesses, that she would stick up for the women who were being abused by their husbands. That was unheard of. Everybody would kind of hush hush about that, they would brush that under the rug, and they would just let it be. She was very strong. I don't know where she got it from. I don't know how, given her her beginnings, but she became the kind of matriarchal figure of strength that then her daughter, your mother, took that mantle and was also extremely strong. And now you can talk about her.

Kassia Binkowski
I was gonna say, was that precedent setting? Like how much did this strong activist ofa matriarch set the tone and expectation for future generations of women in your family?

Sabrina Merage Naim
100%

David Merage
Well, I want to also say that we are talking about 90 years ago when the times were different. Unfortunately, even today, this practice of child bought bride is continuing.

Kassia Binkowski
We're actually having a conversation in a few weeks with an organization, Girls Not Brides, focused on exactly this issue.

David Merage
And it is sad to be at a time with the knowledge and education and the change in the world, we we still hang on to customs that are truly wrong. And that should stop. But you know, it is a worldwide issue. How many of those children who got married early actually became someone like my my grandmother? Very few. The trauma for them was incredible. And they came, they got married their children, and they lived very difficult lives and then they died. Sarah was unique, and to some degree, Sabrina, it was her mother, was also a very powerful woman. So in my family, we don't have many powerful men on my mother's side, but powerful women. And that transferred into my mother, who I became very close with from early on. And she actually became a major philanthropist, worldwide philanthropist. And my relationship with her was love from the beginning. She and I have been close, we have traveled together, we have done projects together. And I have respected what she has done for thousands and thousands of people. And my father was a very strong man, he had to be a self made man. And there were clashes between the two of them. And neither of them were willing to give in. And, I learned a lesson that, in marriage there has to be at times given... one gives and the other one gives a next time. And that kind of balances things up.

Sabrina Merage Naim
You tell the story of sometimes when you were a kid, you would see your parents fighting and your mother would get so heated that she would start throwing plates in his head.

David Merage
Not at his head.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Well, maybe her aim wasn't as good as she wanted it to be.

Kassia Binkowski
She had wished it was!

David Merage
No, she would grab the plates and smash them, one after the other, and everybody would be running away.

Kassia Binkowski
I mean, that's gotta be very satisfying. Like, I kind of want to do that.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yes.

David Merage
Ha. Yes. Kassia I will stay around you when you're in a good mood.

Kassia Binkowski
Yeah, I'm in the middle of six kids, I can throw a plate.

David Merage
Okay. But then it transferred to not only from my mother to some of the grandkids, including my daughter. And I see the strength and the desire to do right and be involved and run things and manage multiple balls in the air all the time. And you have worked with Sabrina, so I can tell you that she has some of my grandmother and my mother's characteristics. And then we talk about my granddaughter, Sabrinas daughter who is now four years old. And she is... already at the age of one, two, she started showing independence. And I know it is difficult for Sabrina.

Sabrina Merage Naim
God helped me.

Kassia Binkowski
I mean, said every mother ever.

David Merage
You know for me, it is a joy. I love that, I encourage her. But I don't have to live with her all the time. But I had to live with Sabrina.

Kassia Binkowski
Well, you've paid your - I was gonna say, you've paid your dues. You've clearly raised strong willed, independent, incredibly talented women and that shows.

Kassia Binkowski
By any measure, your demographic is probably one of the most critical of feminism right? You are a wealthy American man. You're originally from a very conservative, patriarchal country. That is a really hard thing for us to sell sometimes, these progressive values, these notions of gender equality, and you grew up with strong women around you, but there is an inherent bias. So what else, like, how do we sell that? What else has changed for you? What else has helped open your eyes to these perspectives? What has swayed you? How do we sway others?

David Merage
I think it is more of a cultural shift. And the more we talk about it, the better it is, it opens people's eyes. And some of it for me, it has been inherent in my personality. And also in my family. Wanting to have the women in our lives to be successful, it is not only me, it is with my older brother, and also second brother who's got a 10 year old daughter, and he is doing everything to to help her to succeed. So I think there's a shift in the family, in the culture of the family. My sister was one of the first Persian-Jewish girls that went to university when she was 18. And it was my father's encouragement that, I want you to get educated. So how do we shift to society? I think we need to talk about it more and more. I think women have a role. In one of your podcasts, the subject of women raising other women came up. And, in fact, it was a surprise, because I had no idea that women would undermine other women. And why would they do that? I think women need to play a role. And if they are in a power position, they should help others. If they are educated, they should mentor other women. To go in and say all women should have the ability to do things, well, it doesn't apply, because not all men are able to do certain things. They can do some things and they cannot do others. But as a community, this should be a subject of a discussion and activism. I will give you an example. Through my mother and father's system, we have been doing many, many projects in Israel. And it has had a life of its own, 23 years of activities. And I decided that you know, it's too hard to deal with men. And I would concentrate only with the women. And hundreds upon hundreds went through professional training, to a point that today thousands of these women have become volunteers and helping the society. To go through women, the impact is so much greater than going through men. And also we have affected multiple generations.

Sabrina Merage Naim
And this was similar to what Carly Burson said about how the the impact of investing $1 in girls or women is so significantly more for multiple generations than that same dollar for boys or men. And I think what's interesting to note is that you actually learned that kind of the hard way. Because originally the program was meant to invest in educating the men and making sure that they had certain kinds of skills for the workplace or different things that eventually you realized that it wasn't working. And when you switch that focus to the women, it shifted dramatically, and it as you say, has taken on a life of its own where they don't even need you anymore.

David Merage
So I am not sure whether it was Carly's talk, but I found firsthand that when men make the money, most of it stays with men. When women make the money, it actually goes into the household.

Kassia Binkowski
And there's tons of data to support that. I mean, it's very clear now that the putting the money in the hands of women has a more significant ripple effect.

David Merage
So how can the world change? I think the responsibility is going to fall on more of the women. You don't have to be rich, you don't have to be wealthy, you just have to have a commitment to make a change, and then go out there and make it happen. And it can happen. So all you need is the desire. And that little bit of starting that little fire inside the belly, and then the fire grows, and it grows, and it becomes so tremendous that affects so many others.

Kassia Binkowski
I can hear members of our audience rolling their eyes to hear the very successful male businessman standing here saying, all it takes is desire, all it takes is wanting these things and working hard. And I think there's a lot of me that wants to push back against that, when women in our society are surrounded by so many walls and you know, so many barriers, so much discrimination. What we do know, though, is that it's not often until it becomes personal that men share the same sentiment that you share. You are a conservative businessman with very progressive social values. When did it become personal for you? When did you... Was it in raising a daughter? Or was it in marrying a strong woman? When did it become personal such that you cared and you saw everything that way?

Sabrina Merage Naim
And before you answer that, I just want to kind of also color this in a little bit more, which is, there exists a duality inside of you, that is pretty unique, that you are a conservative businessman, you are fiscally conservative, you're the guy that Mitch McConnell calls when he comes to town to sit down with to talk to. And yet in terms of your social values, you are very progressive, and you care about equality of all people, and you will challenge people on that. And in terms of your, I think the conservative base of your peers, you maybe are very different in terms of how you see community and society. But there still exists some old fashioned views within you. And it's not unique to you, because that is very much part of your demographic. And we want to kind of understand how to unpack this duality that exists within you, not only where it came from, but why doesn't it exist for more people in your demographic?

David Merage
Well, that's a tough question, I will give you a little background. The basis of my social values come from my family, and the constant education. And I am not religious, in any sense, but the constant education within the world of Judaism that you have to give back. Even as a little child, you have this little box and if you had a penny, you would put it there for other people. And then you would go and give that box to a community that would take care of others. The other side of that is what I saw in my own family, my mother, my grandmother, as an immigrant, for me, the values of American values is tremendous. I have travelled around the world, I've seen a lot. The freedom that we have, the constitution that we have, the Bill of Rights that we have in this country needs to be preserved. So when you talk about being conservative, yes, I am conservative, because I want to preserve all these tremendous values that I don't see anywhere else. I didn't see it in Russia. I didn't see it in China, I didn't see it, even in England, I did not see it in most of Europe, the way it is in the United States. And that must be preserved. And that needs to be preserved.

Kassia Binkowski
So David, what happens when your socially progressive values, conflict with your fiscally conservative ones? What happens when you're forced to vote? Those things are often in conflict on a ballot. And how do you decide who to support, not just in elections, but these two things in our society, unfortunately, are often pitted against each other. And so what helps you navigate that choice? Where do you prioritize, because it's one thing to talk about it and to build the business that you have more or less complete control around. But what happens when it comes to something bigger than that, to the systems that you're a part of, to the people that we vote to put in power? How do you decide, what do you prioritize?

David Merage
So I am fortunate that what I do is, I actually become an activist. It is not just writing a check, I have an organization. My philanthropic organization consists of about 50 people. We are out there we are working. By the way out of the 50, there's 40 that are women. And we are working to make changes. So maybe the world goes a certain way. But we are going to go the way we believe that they should go. And I will bring it to an example. Maternity leave. I came across that years ago in my company, when one of the managers she had a baby. And three weeks later, she's back to work. And I went to say, who's taking care of your baby? And she told me the story, which was very difficult, very sad. To hear that you take your three week old baby and you put them in a daycare. She hasn't recovered from from giving birth. And at that moment, I made the decision that that law needs to be changed. We are in the process on a national level working with the government to make that. I will consider it maternity not paternity.

Kassia Binkowski
So that's, okay, perfect. I was gonna ask, does that apply, is that parental leave at large?

David Merage
No, I am a conservative side says if you are a mom, I would like you to connect with your baby, I would like it to be there. Minimum is three months. And that should help. But if they adopt a child, that is a different story. If the person is gay, and somebody has to stay home. So from my perspective, it is a crime that the society should not help moms. And look, there are a lot of single moms. And we expect them that they go have the baby and come back to work.

Kassia Binkowski
But why doesn't that apply for fathers? I mean, we look around the world and we see the gold standard, you know, being Sweden that offers incredibly generous leave to both parents. And the impacts are tremendous. What's holding you back from agreeing with that?

David Merage
I personally don't think that the first three months, you need both parents to be there.

Kassia Binkowski
But you don't have to! It doesn't have to be taken at the same time. We're not saying both parents need to step out at the same time. We're saying that should be choice made... I shouldn't say we. I'm saying it should be a choice made in every household. But why shouldn't men be granted the leave as well?

David Merage
I think you also have to consider if you're going to change laws, what is accepted by the society. We are not Sweden. We are dealing with three weeks instead of three months. I want to take a little bite, and a little bite, and a little bite. Moms can take three months. And when they come back, nobody has paid them. And maybe their job is the danger. We don't have that protection. Well, what happens is that this is... the issue is not only the moms' but the next generation. The connection between parents and their children. Now, if you said that dads should be involved with helping moms, I definitely agree. And I see that in this generation, the millennials, they divide the tasks mostly. But in my generation, we didn't do that.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah. So to be fair, that was not the case for you and mom, and you were very much head down in your work. Many decades later now you have admitted that at that time in your life, your priorities were work and then family. And even though I think you did a pretty good job, given how much you were away, and how much you had to work. I didn't feel like I had an absent father. I felt like you were there, you were present. But mom maybe doesn't feel like you were present, especially for the younger years of our lives. Right? So the burden very much fell on her to be the parent taking care of the kids. And you were, you know, this is kind of like the standard American story. You were the father going to work every day. And if you came home for dinner great, and if you didn't, you just didn't, and there was not a challenge about that. Today, if my husband doesn't come home for dinner, I'm pissed.

Kassia Binkowski
If it's like 5:07, I'm like, "Where are you?!"

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, and let's acknowledge for a second that we also are in a position of privilege, which you have afforded to us, right? You worked your ass off from nothing, for 30 plus years to build a successful business, that then - 35 sorry, excuse me. 35. For 35 years to build a successful business, so that I could have the privilege of telling my husband that you better have your ass home, and with us. And I'm working, and he's working, and we have kids, and we divide that task. That was not the case, that was not the case for you and mom, and it was not the case for most people in your generation.

Kassia Binkowski
I was gonna say I mean, it's the same story in my household, right? It's the same story that my dad was around, but mostly working our entire childhood to build this business for us. And that's incredible. And also, I think we just uncovered one of the points, David, where your social values, like they have a limit, right? You know, you agree and you're fighting and putting time and resources and effort towards changing maternity leave policies. But you still think that right now they should just be for women, and there is still a tremendous burden for a woman to navigate that leave, even if they're given three months paid job security. When they come back, it is not without cost. It is not without this really hard transition back, rebuilding trust, re-navigating that balance. Why shouldn't that also be felt by men? Why shouldn't that be shared by men? I mean, when my twins were born two years ago, my husband's company had just instated parental leave, and everyone was given three months off for which we feel incredibly grateful. And he was one of the first in the company, one of the first men in the company, to take it. And he hesitated. He was like, well, there's no precedent and none of my male peers have done that, what respect am I losing? Or what's, you know, am I being threatened by being out? Who might creep in? And we had conversations where you know, damn straight, you're taking that leave, not just for you, and because I need you, and we're having twins, but for every male behind you, who needs this to be normalized, who needs to also embrace that awkward transition and navigate this work life balance that for generations wasn't afforded?

David Merage
So I will ask you to accompany us when we have the next meeting with Senators and Congressman and you can do that argument. I will do the argument for mothers having a leave. But I want to hear that passion that you just expressed in front of them because not too many people do. Today the world is different. In the last year and a half, we have seen that people can work from home and they can they can be very effective. My assistant who's been with me now for four years. She's due any time. And I don't expect, and she has not volunteered the first three months to do anything. And I understand that because, you know, how many diapers do you have to change? And how much feeding do you have to do and, you know, you don't get any sleep and all of that. And I think that is her right. And we have made arrangements to cover the time that she's off.

Sabrina Merage Naim
But let's look at it also from the business man's perspective, right? Because Kassia has a lot of passion, and she brings up really good points. And I think there's a lot of data that shows why both parents should and can be present at different times and how it's important for the father as well. You're coming at it from a business owner's perspective, where your assistant is taking maternity leave for her second child, and your initial reaction after congratulations, I'm so happy for her, was like, oh, shit, what am I gonna do? Right?

Kassia Binkowski
Of course it is because you're human

Sabrina Merage Naim
Like, oh, she's gonna be gone, and I have to train a whole person and da-da-da-da-da, and my productivity is going to go down, and my business is going to be impacted. And when you talk about fathers taking parental leave, the conservative view is, if mothers are taking maternity leave, we need the men to stay, to run these businesses, to be effective and productive in these businesses, we cannot lose out on the economic productivity of half the population. Okay, now Kassia.

Kassia Binkowski
And yet, I remember again, I'm pointing to my husband's company, because they just navigated this so recently, there was a ton of compelling data to say that it's actually, the economic cost to the company is significantly less to offer this benefit than it is to ultimately train new people, to lose out on good employees, because there are better benefits elsewhere. So it was an economic argument that convinced them.

David Merage
I think we are seeing some changes into society. And we should be open to that. Today, my fight is to have the businesses and the politicians accept that moms need to be with their children, at least for three months.

Sabrina Merage Naim
You have spent a significant amount of your time and resource and money for what, 20 years now?

David Merage
It's about 16 years.

Sabrina Merage Naim
16 years. Really greenfielding an organization called Early Learning Ventures. Part of it is providing those back office resources to try and take some of the burden off of childcare centers, administratively trying to give them tools so that they can focus their time on the children in their care. Part of it is also advocating on Capitol Hill for policy change. And the thing that's really unique about that is you are advocating for tax increases. You, a fiscally conservative man, are advocating for tax increases for early childcare and early childhood education. What makes you, and I should say that this very much impacts women and mothers because so many women have not been able to go back to work because of lack of access to to quality childcare education.

Kassia Binkowski
Or the cost thereof, right? It's the weighing of, what income are you bringing in versus how much are you spending on childcare?

Sabrina Merage Naim
Exactly. The cost is extremely high. And that's also a huge challenge. And although you are advocating for this and President Biden is also advocating for this, there are conservative states in this country which do not want to take additional funding for early child care education because they would prefer the mothers to stay home with the children, which is kind of an interesting thing, because you just said that right? You just said how important it is for a mother to stay home, but you're talking about for the first few months. And then, correct me if I'm wrong, you still would advocate that women who want to and have the ability or the need to go back to work should be able to without having to worry about, are their kids being taken care of? They should not be forced to stay home because of these old fashioned values that mothers should just be mothers at home.

David Merage
There's two parts to this.

Kassia Binkowski
There's like 200 parts to this.

David Merage
I will discuss only two parts. One is that we expect women to go to work. We educate our female population, we send them to schools, we encourage them to go to universities, and then we say, go find a work. Because 50% of the economy of this country, and to some degree the world, is dependent on the productivity of women. On the other side, when women have children, we come to a point when we say, you're on your own, you say to the parents, you're on your own, this is your problem. And I believe that society has a role to support young families when they have children. And it is important that we understand that this society will fail without having women in the workforce. So we cannot have a double standard and encourage our children to get educated and go to work and then say you're on your own. That needs to change. And there is always, in any project, two perspectives. People think one way or another way. But we are committed to our goal. And we believe that children who are the voiceless need to have a voice. And that voice is going to be us. And we need to do whatever it is to help the voiceless. If you were talking about, a few years ago it was health insurance. People were loud. But when you're talking about little kids, the little kids are not screaming bloody murder, and going out there and threatening the government. We need to actually be that voice for them.

Kassia Binkowski
So to be fair, the mothers who are so often the voice for those kids are so fucking tired, right? Their plates are too full to fight that fight.

David Merage
So what happens is that we need to be there, and we need to organize and we need those of us who have a passion. Those of us who believe in certain things, we need to do something, we cannot sit back and say society is going to go on its own.

David Merage
I don't think that the world acknowledges the difficulties that any mother faces. But does that fit your thinking?

Kassia Binkowski
Yeah, absolutely. Keep going. I mean, I don't think there's anybody who would disagree with that statement?

David Merage
Well, I'm not sure whether everybody understands that a woman, when they have children, they really have multiple jobs. One is to take care of a baby. And if they have other children, it is additional responsibility that they have, then the job, that they have the career they have, which demands a tremendous amount of time and energy. And the third is running a house and managing a household, preparing meals, taking care of what is going on.

Sabrina Merage Naim
The endless laundry, the cleaning, I guess my question to you is when did it become apparent to you that mothers were not getting their dues and their respect?

David Merage
My wife and I, Laura and I decided very early on that the most important thing in our life was to raise children. And she agreed that she would be a stay at home mom.

Kassia Binkowski
Did she want it? Did she want it? Was it assumed? Or was it truly mutual agreement? Because I think you're from a generation where it wasn't always, you know, spoken about and clarified. It was more often than not just assumed that the woman would take on that role and that duty.

David Merage
I don't know about that part of it, but we didn't sit and have a discussion. As to I will do this, and you will do this.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Which I think answers your question, Kassia. It was more assumed.

Kassia Binkowski
It was completely assumed. I mean, was it the same in your household Sabrina? I mean, this is a huge, I think generational difference.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, no, it wasn't. It wasn't, we both have careers, we talk about it often. And frankly, there's a sense of resentment, that if the kids need to be home, or if the kids are sick, or whatever, that it's just assumed that I would be staying home to take care of them. And very often with my husband, Sean, we have the conversation like, excuse me, this should be a deliberate discussion and acknowledgement of you know, who's going to do what, and not just, oh, you get to go to the office, and I stay home with the kids. We need to have that conversation.

Kassia Binkowski
Again, and again, and again!

Sabrina Merage Naim
Again and again. Yeah, every time. Every time it's a new conversation.

David Merage
Yeah, I don't think in our relationship, that was the case.

Kassia Binkowski
So then what was it about childcare that like really struck a nerve with you? To the point that you had delineated these responsibilities in your household. You started to observe it in your workplace and your business. But when did it become such a passion for you that you're willing to leverage so much time and resource to create policy change around it, if it wasn't something that you necessarily felt burdened with in child rearing yourself?

David Merage
I think the times have changed. Women have entered the workforce, it is expected of them to be a productive part of the financial side. They've always been productive inmoving society forward. But the economic part of society has become a burden on women also. So when you look at it in marriage, a couple both are working. And it became so apparent to me, who's taking care of the kids? What system is that? What support system is there? And the world is not... our world and the United States never accepted that this is happening, that both couples are working. And in my mother's time, or my grandmother's time, the man was the breadwinner. The wife was the one that was taking care of the family and kids. Well, I was the transitional generation. And then later, it became very apparent that both couples have to work.

Kassia Binkowski
What's interesting, is that, was that the transitional generation for women's engagement in the workforce? Yes. Transitional generation for men being involved in the household and child rearing? I would argue no, I would argue maybe Sabrina and I are part of that generation, where we're starting to really see and notice that shift, but I don't think that's... that's barely on the cusp of happening.

David Merage
No it was not, I admit that it was not during my generation. And yes, I see that your generations, absolutely. And I see all the younger people and my people, they are supporting and they are helping. So the thinking has changed and the organizations have changed and what we expect of our people has changed.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I also think there's a distinction that I want to acknowledge, of what you're saying between the women who have to work, right? And the women who choose to work. And in your generation, for example, if mom was fortunate enough to have a situation where you were the breadwinner of the family and that she did not have to go into the workforce. But if she had chosen to, that may have been a problem for you guys.

Kassia Binkowski
So two things here, one is the observation that you're in-road to impacting what is a huge women's issue internationally, child care, wasn't actually women at all. It has nothing to do with women, it has to do with the fact that you're very, very invested in the well being of the next generation. And that's not a critique, just an observation. The second, is is it doing the cause, the issue, a disservice to focus on it exclusively as a child well being, development of the next generation issue?

Sabrina Merage Naim
It's an interesting quandary, which is, right now the focus is on children. And the focus is on the next generation. And what would happen if the focus shifted to women? And my instinct, actually, is to say that it would be a harder sell, which is ridiculous.

Kassia Binkowski
Right. Would the doors just be closed if you lead with the that?

Sabrina Merage Naim
It goes back... Yeah, it goes back to Pat Mitchell's stories about how anytime she came with a pitch about women, a show about women or for women, the door was just closed on her face. Even though it is half the population of the world. Anything that was women forward or women focused, would just get a slammed door. And when you talk about children, people, my instinct says people would immediately be like, of course, our children, we love our children. It's the next generation, economically, socially, progressively, all of these things. But if you talk about how this is a women's issue, suddenly the "feminist progressive agenda" takes the focus away from the fact that this also is an issue about our children.

Kassia Binkowski
Part of me wants to applaud you on that David for like, see the way in, you know, if it gets us to the same end, great. And part of me gets really pissed that we can't call a spade a spade, and own this as a women's issue and lead with that argument.

David Merage
I disagree that it is only a women issue. I think it is a parental issue. Our suggestion, and our approach to this is that parents need support. Parents need the financial support, as well as the system support. There are tens of thousands of childcare centers. And these are all small businesses. 90% or small businesses. They don't have systems, they don't have ways. We require any member of our our organizations that join us that they should provide high quality childcare and daycare.

Kassia Binkowski
I want to agree with you that it's a parental issue.

Sabrina Merage Naim
But it's not.

Kassia Binkowski
The data would say otherwise. It's not. Like COVID, when everyone was at home, parenting children and schooling them and work - it was women who had to step out. It's women who might never return.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, it's a women's issue. It's a beautiful story. And in a perfect world, that is the case. That it should be a parental issue, that it should impact men and women equally. And yet, it still disproportionately impacts women. It impacts women's health, it impacts women in the workforce, it impacts women at home, it impacts women, significantly more than it impacts men, which is why this is also a women's issue.

Kassia Binkowski
What happens when your fiscal values conflict with your social ones? I mean for somebody who embodies as much duality as you do, and in America's two party system that often pits these two things against each other. Where do you lean? How do you navigate those choices?

David Merage
I am very comfortable to be in the middle. I am not a direct supporter of all the philosophies of one party or the other party. I believe that I need to put my my own judgement, my own intelligence, my own emotions into the decision. In the social areas, I am strong with social values. When it comes down to certain fundamental free enterprise, I believe that and I support that. I am a beneficiary of the free enterprise coming from another country, coming to this country. Building an organization, employing almost 2,000 people, affecting thousands upon thousands of people's lives and succeeding in a society that did not limit. Those are the values that I stand for. And do I accept everything that both parties accept? No, absolutely not. I am very free in what my decision is. In fact, most of the people in politics, they don't know which party I belong to. And I'm okay with that. And I don't need to go in and raise a flag for Democrats or Republicans.

Kassia Binkowski
What do you find most off putting about feminism? I mean, I think, in a lot of ways, your demographic, which is to say the wealthy American man is often the greatest opponent to feminism in a lot of ways. And I'm wondering what you personally find most off putting, especially when you want all of those freedoms, and you know, that achievement for your daughter and your granddaughter? Where does the opposition come from? Why can't we own things as women's movements? Why do we have to package it this other way?

David Merage
I think women can be women, they can be femininists. Well, they can be powerful. And I have seen that, throughout my entire career. That the women who are around me, they don't need to be loud. They don't need to be screaming, they don't need to come in and say, I am me. I think they can have their own personality. And through their dedication, hard work, intelligence, people learn to respect them.

Kassia Binkowski
And yet, if there hadn't been women screaming and coming in loud to these various industries and systems, the opportunities for those other women to rise slowly and quietly, would have never happened.

David Merage
I cannot make a statement on that side. In my organization, I can tell you, I have another food manufacturing company. The second in command is a lady and she is from Latin America. And she is loved and respected. And she does incredible job. She did not need to scream or shout. We recognized her abilities. And she does a great job. So would that be an issue that other men... I don't know. It's a general statement. And it is such a hard thing to say, men are this way and women are this way. I don't think so, I think we have every kind of stereotyping is not good. So, can we sit here and say there is a world of discrimination therefore, we are not able? I think that there is discrimination in everything, everywhere. But then we need to put our energy in moving around it and making things happen. So making things happen means no is not an answer. I will find a solution. I will go forward. Why are we not spending the energy in moving women forward?

Sabrina Merage Naim
I want to challenge you because you didn't answer Kassia's question. The question was, there are times when men in your generation and you sometimes when you make jokes like "Oh, those women libbers!", right? That it is off putting. And we need to when you talk about being creative, and you need to talk about not taking no for an answer, and you talk about women can do anything and women shouldn't be limited and stuff like that. Well, that's not really the reality of the world that women have been limited and women have been kind of separated from so many different opportunities and tasks. And yet, why is it off putting that, say the women's liberation movement of the 1960s and 70s, for your generation was seen as something potentially negative.

David Merage
I don't know.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Is it for you?

Kassia Binkowski
You said you would not raise your flag for the democrats and you would not come in raising your flag for republicans? Would you raise your flag as a feminist? Would you call yourself a feminist? Will you accept that label?

David Merage
No.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Why not?

David Merage
No. I think that the answer to that is, in my world, I do not see...

Sabrina Merage Naim
You don't see a need for feminism, is what you're saying.

David Merage
In my world, in my work.

Kassia Binkowski
What about in THE world? What about in the world?

David Merage
You know, I have to pick and choose my challenges. And I have picked and chosen early childcare, people with mental health that get caught in the legal system. Laura's art, I am passionate about expanding the world of art as a way of educating. I am passionate about doing projects in Israel that are helping tens of thousands of people every year. Then you have to decide, what is it that I want to go and do? Laura is talking about... and I know she's... and we need to talk about her because she is a feminist. She is an incredible, intelligent, dedicated woman that has done incredible stuff. And she's talking about taking this as a challenge for society. And I'm saying, good, let's do it. But I cannot do it.

Kassia Binkowski
But I'm not saying you need to put all your time and resource there. I'm saying why is it so off putting for a man who reflects so many feminist values to still not be able to swallow hard and call themselves a feminist? Why is that so hard to own? I don't get it.

David Merage
Because I don't see in my world. Again, in my world. I don't see that I need to become a feminist because I live it. I live it.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Okay, so let's define it. Let's define it differently. Because I've had so many conversations with with men of a certain age, who hear the word feminism or feminist and immediately shut down. So let's define it differently. Do you believe that I, as a woman, I am just as capable as my brother, who is a man, just as capable, that all opportunities that are afforded to him because he's a man should be afforded to me, because I'm a woman. That my abilities are not limited, that my opportunity should not be limited --

David Merage
Can I stop you? The answer to all of that is yes, and yes, and hell yes. I have raised a daughter. And I have expectation that she is going to do incredible stuff. And in fact, in our organization, you are respected so highly. And it is not because you are my daughter, it is not because you are female, it is because of you. Because of your capabilities, your abilities.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So I appreciate that, and putting aside me being your daughter, do you believe that women are limited or are less capable, or should be separated and less than because of their gender?

David Merage
You threw a lot of stuff in there.

Kassia Binkowski
All the things!

David Merage
I don't think that women are limited at all. I think there are some women, as some men, who have less capabilities. The answer to that is no.

Sabrina Merage Naim
The issue is not are some women less capable at certain things. The issue is fundamentally women as a gender. Are they less than because of their gender?

David Merage
No, absolutely not.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Okay, you're a feminist. Ta-da! A feminist. That's it. It's that.

David Merage
Okay, sure. You want me to say I am a feminist? That's fine.

Kassia Binkowski
Say it out loud. David. Say it out loud.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Feminism is purely the ideology that men and women are equal, that women are not less than because of their gender. Yes, within that every single individual on this planet is better or worse at certain things, more capable, less capable at certain things. Stronger, weaker, healthier, less help, like whatever. Every kind of spectrum, you can think of. The idea that women are less than men because they are women? That's it. It's that simple.

Kassia Binkowski
What I'm fascinated by David is, is there's no question that you're leading a life that reflects that. But what I'm fascinated by is why it's so hard then to own it. And not just for you, but for a huge, huge peer group of yours.

David Merage
No, I think there's a miscommunication here. To me, if I own it, which I own and I live by, that means I have to become activist, I have to take another project on, I have to become a part of doing another major project that would include promoting equality.

Kassia Binkowski
I disagree. You can own all sorts of things and on all sorts of values, and say them, and not put all of your time and resource towards them.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Let me also, let me also clarify why it's dangerous for people to move forward with that thinking, which is, you are not required to be an activist out there. You're not required to take to the streets with signs, you're not even required to put funding towards feminists or women led organizations, you're not required to do any of those things. But for your daughter, for your wife, for your mother, your grandmother, your granddaughter, all the future generations, all of the women in your life that you care about who you know, are capable, and just as capable as the men in your life. It is required - highlight, underline, underline, exclamation point - for you to proudly say that you are a feminist, because we need you to. We need you to acknowledge it and to publicly announce it so that you do not undercut the women in your life who you love and you care about. That's it.

Kassia Binkowski
And to claim things that are women's issues when they're women's issues. And to vote in alignment with those things. All of that can happen without it becoming your next big campaign, your next big philanthropic effort. And it makes a huge difference. And we need more of you to do that.

David Merage
So publicly, I announced that I am a feminist. Yes, absolutely.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Breaking Glass is a production of Evoke Media. Evoke is a nonprofit organization that exists in order to elevate the people and stories that are working to make the world a more unified and equitable place. Learn more at weareevokemedia.com