Parenthood, gender stereotypes, and girls in STEM

Heide Iravani & Emily Clifford Transcript

Sabrina Merage Naim
From Evoke Media I'm Sabrina Merage Naim, with me is Kassia Binkowski, and this is Breaking Glass - a series of conversations with women around the world who are shattering glass ceilings and challenging social norms. They are audacious, gutsy, and their stories are echoed across borders and generations in a rallying cry that is changing the narrative for women everywhere. Alright, ladies and gentlemen, little known fact, Kassia and I are the mothers of five young children between us all under the ages of five. And as such, we were especially excited to be joined by Heide Iravani and Emily Clifford cofounders of Piccolina. Piccolina is a lifestyle brand dedicated to empowering today's young children to become tomorrow's leaders and problem solvers. Heide and Emily joined us to talk about the gender boxes we place around our children, the stereotypes and career paths that constrain them, and what we can do as parents to inspire creativity and equity in the next generation.

Kassia Binkowski
This one was a really fun one Sabrina, as the parent of a little boy who loves trucks and all things pink, and a daughter who is obsessed with dresses, I loved every minute of this conversation. Emily and Heide share their own professional journeys from male dominated industries, to their experience over the past 18 months as young mothers and badass entrepreneurs. We're talking parenthood, gender stereotypes and how to raise a generation of young feminists. It's something we obviously care very deeply about, and we think you do too. Take a listen.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Heide and Emily, thank you both so much for joining us from different parts of New York today. But East Coast nonetheless. Pleasure to have you.

Emily Clifford
Thanks for having us.

Heide Iravani
Great to be here.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So I'd like to start before we get into the Piccolina story and hearing about what you guys are doing right now. You both have had different careers kind of coming into this and are pretty accomplished in your career. So tell us where you were before you became mothers, Heide.

Heide Iravani
Before I became a mother? Well, the last job that I had before I became a mother, I was working in investment banking, I actually entered finance while I was pregnant. So I began my career on Wall Street as a corporate attorney. And I had been working at a big New York law firm for three years, when I got recruited to go and join an investment banking firm on the finance side. And I believe, you know, like the day after my first interview, I found out that I was pregnant with my first child.

Kassia Binkowski
Awesome timing. Perfect.

Heide Iravani
And I think I had just read Sheryl Sandberg's Lean In on the way to work. And I was sort of like, I'm gonna go with this. And so I went for it. I jumped from law to finance and did investment banking for two years. And while I was there, I also got pregnant with my second child. During that time, for my husband's career, we ended up relocating for a few years, from New York to Washington, DC. And so at that time, I ended up switching into tech. Because while I had been in law and in banking, I had developed a real interest in business and a fascination with you know, how businesses evolve at different stages and really wanted to work on the inside of a company.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I have to pause you for a second because we need to acknowledge the reality of the situation, which is that there are kids laughing in the background, and that is life. So that's gonna happen and that's okay. And we embrace it. But please continue.

Heide Iravani
Thank you. Yeah, no, it's like, I don't even notice the sound of children in the background anymore. White noise to me. Yeah, so I was in tech. And that's where I was when I decided to start Piccolina and also got pregnant with my third child.

Sabrina Merage Naim
God bless you. But I do want to just clarify that before investment banking, you were a lawyer.

Heide Iravani
I was.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Okay. So you've hopped around quite a bit, but all of these things were vastly different from where you are today. And we'll get into that. But Emily, we want to hear about your background as well.

Emily Clifford
Yeah, so my career path was a bit more static. I was in the same place for almost my entire career. So almost 13 years, and I started there right out of college. Actually, prior to college is when I started at Donna Karen. And so I got into fashion at a pretty early age, and stayed in fashion, specifically buying and merchandising for my entire career. And it was there that I had my first child and really having my first child was what made me kind of rethink my career path. But just to give a little bit more background on what I did in fashion. So I worked for Donna Karen. And I started, you know, initially in the planning portion of the business, and then I worked my way into buying and merchandising, and so at the time that I left, I was managing a pretty large team for all of our retail stores and our e-commerce site. So I had a really strong understanding of fashion and retail. So the skills that I'm using today are very similar to what I was doing for the past 13 years, but just in a very different way.

Kassia Binkowski
Were these the careers you kind of always saw yourself in? Is this what you wanted to be when you grew up? I guess I'm curious kind of what gender stereotypes existed in your own homes, and what kind of exposure you had and ambition you had professionally.

Emily Clifford
So, no, it's very funny that I ended up in fashion because growing up, I was a real tomboy, I actually thought I was going to be a baseball player for my entire life. And so I really stumbled into fashion, not because of fashion, but because it was a connection that I had when I was young and in college. And when I was there, I really connected with the people there. And so it was really, you know, an interesting fact is that my mentor was the same person that I interned for. And she became my boss. And I was with her for 13 years. And so she really served as this role model for me. And what was so important about that was that it wasn't, you know, for me, there wasn't really this like sense of like fashion and girly stuff. It was more that I saw this very strong female business person, and I wanted to be that. I loved seeing success in that forum. I had never seen like, I'm from a pretty small town in Buffalo, and my parents are social workers and teachers, and, coming to the city and seeing these high profile executives, and then seeing them be badasses, it was very inspiring to me.

Sabrina Merage Naim
And Heide, you are in a very male dominated industry that runs on testosterone. I mean, what was that like for you, given you started your family in that realm?

Heide Iravani
Yeah, I think that, to be honest, I hadn't really been super aware of gender stereotypes professionally, until I became a member of those industries. And you know, or really, like, towards the later part of law school, I had a bit of a rough childhood, growing up and really, like, was swimming upstream so much that like, everything was a challenge, and my gender just was other minor detail.

Sabrina Merage Naim
And it's okay, I think that's, I mean, it was really about what were some of the gender stereotypes you grew up with? But given you're talking about how you had a different kind of childhood, I mean, I'm curious if you'd be willing to talk at all about some of those hardships that you that you faced as a child?

Heide Iravani
So I grew up in a rural town and North Carolina, sort of an old abandoned textile mill town, my mother, her parents had moved there in the depression era. And my father was from Iran. And so I think the combination of like this deep Southern Baptist background and a Muslim Iranian background, like there were definitely some elements of male worship, I think on both sides of my family. But ultimately, my mother was a single mother, I had three younger siblings, and she struggled to raise us and I really knew that to get out of this town, my education was going to be critical for me. So I really leaned into that. I ended up moving away from home when I was 14. And lived with my aunt in Charlotte. I overcame a lot of adversity, and was one of the first people my family to go to college and didn't really have an idea of what I wanted to do. I just wanted to get out of the small town where I was raised. And so I kind of found myself hopping from one stone to the next. And so then I went to law school, and it was like I woke up to these very strong discrepancies between the way men and women behaved, and were treated in the classroom and then went to my first job at a big law firm and lit kind of hit me. Whereas I had been a bit obtuse to it before, to be honest, because I was so distracted by the other challenges in my life.

Sabrina Merage Naim
And again, the universal theme that comes up for us over and over and over again, which is regardless of your background, regardless of where you come from, regardless of your socio-economic situation, that access to an education is the key to everything.

Heide Iravani
Absolutely.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So let's talk about that, you guys. Fast forward, you were in investment banking with a young family, Emily's working for Donna Karen, also eventually with a family, and you guys decided to pivot away from those careers. Why? What happened?

Heide Iravani
Yeah I mean, so as we've talked about, I was growing my family at the same time that I was developing my career. And so my first child was a boy. And I wasn't really paying as much attention to the role of gender in the universe as it was being presented to him. But my second child was a girl. And when I had her, I started to become acutely aware of all of the kinds of content embedded in everything from media, to consumer products, to just the way people interact with her, and the signals that it was sending to her about her gender and her capabilities. And it infuriated me and I really, you know, from a consumer perspective, I was finding myself increasingly frustrated with what was available on the market, particularly with respect to clothes. I found that a lot of kids clothes on the market, were really undercutting my values and the values that I wanted to instill in my children, male or female. And so that's what really woke me up to the market opportunity and lit a fire under me to address this problem that I was facing as a consumer.

Kassia Binkowski
Where did your paths intersect?

Heide Iravani
So as you know, I've been in multiple fields, finance, law, tech, but none of them are related to consumer products, I had a huge blind spot with respect to the core product that I was building Piccolina around. And so I was aware of that. And through my professional network got connected with Emily, who began working with me as a consultant and just immediately added so much valuable insight. And we also developed a really strong working relationship. And it was critical that she was going to be key to building Piccolina into what it could be.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So let's name the frustrations that you were seeing. What was it that you see, you know, out there in the clothing for young girls and young boys that you wanted to create something different? What was it? I'm assuming that it's the fact that girls clothes are pink and fufu and sparkly and unicorns and rainbows and boys are all about trucks and "you're stronger". And girls are pretty and boys are... you know? What were you seeing?

Heide Iravani
I definitely think that that kind of sums up how my experience was initially. I found myself repeatedly just shopping for my daughter in the boys section or just staying up super late at night, you know, trying to buy clothes for her, because I was working full time and very busy. And just, I didn't think that I should have to put her necessarily in boys clothes, I wanted something that could be also feminine, that didn't need to negate her femininity, but that didn't also undermine her capabilities or insinuate that she needed to be demure or whimsical or soft spoken and I think some of the things that you mentioned absolutely I found frustrating. The color schemes and female clothes and products, also the actual design content. I found so many conversations that I was having with my son and that I was beginning to have with my daughter revolved around the actual design content on their clothes or in books and you know, what is an airplane? How do airplanes fly? What is a train? But when you're talking about an ice cream cone, I mean, that's a harder, or maybe less stimulating conversation to have. And so in seeing this frustration I also came across some research talking about the fact that by the time children are around the age of five and six years old, many girls have started to develop self doubting beliefs about their own capabilities and intelligence, and they self select into areas that are less focused on science and career opportunities also that are tracking them less into science and leadership positions in general.

Kassia Binkowski
Emily, what was your experience? I mean, you came on as a consultant. Today you're co-founder and COO, this obviously resonated very deeply, and you were a mother at the time as well. So what has been your experience of gender norms and expectations?

Emily Clifford
Yeah, so I think for me, it starts a little further back. And you know, it's funny, having kind of thought about this, I haven't thought about it in a while because it comes full circle. So, you know, I spent my whole career working in fashion, but what was different about my specific brand, so Donna Karen, as the designer was somewhat of a pioneer in the 80s. So her entire mission was to design clothes for a business woman, so they can feel powerful, and they didn't have to wear a suit while doing it. And so I think that so much of that was already ingrained in me. And so like, it was less about the actual content of clothes, because I have two boys. So it's a little different for me, but it's more about how clothes can make you feel powerful. And so that had been something that stayed with me for a long time. And so when Heide and I connected, and this was the passion, I really saw how much this you know, carries on from the time you're a child to all the way into adulthood, and how how much it matters.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I want to dig into the idea of STEM for a minute, because Heide, as you mentioned, you know, we have this data that shows that from the tender age of five girls can already develop self limiting beliefs, and they're thinking of themselves as not as smart or capable as boys in different ways. And STEM, which stands for science, technology, engineering, and math is a concept that we really are trying to be more conscientious of with our parenting. But you're actually using the acronym STREAM, which is one that was new to us, what are the R and the A?

Heide Iravani
Reading and Art. The arts because for us, you know, we don't I mean, STEM is great. But what Piccolina is really about is exposing children to design content that is stimulating, that as enriching, that is going to encourage them to explore their curiosities, and grow based on what their personal interests are. And those interests don't have to be STEM, they can be the arts, they can be literature, this is really about embracing your passions and leaning into them, but not being forced to do so along your gender lines.

Sabrina Merage Naim
This is something that has become very prevalent in my household, because both Kassia and I have daughters and sons, but our kids are young. They're all under five. So my four year old daughter yesterday, said, "Mommy, you and I don't look pretty because we're not in dresses". We were going out to dinner at a restaurant. And we were both in jeans and cute tops. And she said we're not pretty because we're not in dresses. And I wanted to cry. Like where have I gone wrong that that is her thought process already, and she's four right? She's incredibly smart. Very articulate. But she's also super girly, and she wants all the pink and all the sparkles, and if I buy her any kinds of clothes that don't have the pink in the sparkles, she won't wear it. She just refuses. I need to see how to ask this question. Well, how can we embrace the cute girly you know, sassy, frilly, while also, you know, if my kid wants to wear pink for the rest of her life? Fine. But how do we let her do that while not limiting her belief in herself? Limiting her career opportunities? Without having that be directly associated with her self confidence or her path as a strong, independent woman?

Heide Iravani
Yeah, I think that you know, you've really nailed it on the head is that what we need to do, my belief as a society, is to divorce the connotations we have with masculine and feminine in terms of design, or gender with ability and interest. Because you can be a very traditionally girly girl and that you might like traditionally, you know, feminine colors or sparkles, right? But also love science or love playing in the mud, and those things don't have to be mutually exclusive. Similarly, you can be a boy and like those things, I mean, I think that we have, we are starting to accept more commonly as a society that people are just really complex, and they have spectrums of different likes and dislikes and interests, and they can intersect at different places. And so something that Piccolina, you know, we started out with a focus on girls, but we're really branching beyond that, to think more broadly about just children's empowerment. But the starting point being female, because that is where the biggest problem lies today. But just being yourself and not necessarily having to fit yourself into a box. And I think, you know, part of it is to lead by example in your household, like, show your kids, and I'm not saying that you don't, this is something that we struggle with, but that things don't necessarily have to be broken down along traditional gender lines at home. And that being pretty doesn't necessarily mean wearing a dress, or that, you know, boys can paint their nails too.

Kassia Binkowski
I mean, it's really interesting as the mother of two sons and a daughter, again, who are all very young, I've actually found it much easier to expose my daughter to otherwise like, you know, "boy things". Playing sports, and roughhousing, and yet, she still only wants to wear dresses, and that's fine, we have a rule that you can wear the dresses, so long as you can climb trees. Great, fine. But I find it totally, honestly, much harder to expose my sonsand encourage, you know, the playing with the dolls or the painting the nails, and I don't overtly discourage it. But I certainly don't find myself making nearly as intentional an effort to expose that side of it. Which Emily, I don't know if you can relate to as a mother of two boys, but it's certainly not an either-or challenge. I mean, regardless of what gender your child is, or identifies as it's complicated. It's messy.

Emily Clifford
I completely agree. I mean, I have two sons, a two and a three year old son, they're pretty young. But I do feel the same way. But I think what's worked for me is really just showing them their options, showing them that like, there aren't these lanes, and if they want to merge, that's fine. And things aren't already pre determined. And I think it has so much to do with, you know, what we buy them and what we show them. And you know, when you're this young, there's visual cues, and they immediately associate with things that they see. So like, what I'm always trying to pay attention to is like, how can I get these roles reversed in the content I'm sharing with them, so it becomes more normal, and they can start making those connections in a less, you know, gender stereotyped way?

Sabrina Merage Naim
So going back to the kind of broader implications, there's research that suggests that we're actually systematically tracking our children away from careers in science, math technology, from an early age.

Kassia Binkowski
Our daughters, specifically, tracking our daughters away.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Sorry, our daughters. Yes. And women really make up just a quarter of the workforce in those industries. What do we see as the root of the problem?

Heide Iravani
Yeah, I mean, I think that those statistics are actually quite ironic, because, you know, empirically, while we see less women going into fields associated with STEM, and we see these studies showing that girls are doubting their abilities, and their intelligence, girls actually get better grades than boys and have higher rates of graduation from high school and go on to college at higher rates. So it really is evidence that this is an issue of perception, and it's an issue of self perception and perception of those around each of us. And so, it's really about teaching girls and boys to really equally value the capabilities, I think, of adult women. It's not so much looking around their peers, but what are they seeing when they look up to their role models in their lives? And who are their role models? Are there strong female role models, not just for girls, but for boys?Are our little boys being taught that they should be following in the example of women just as much as men, and that women are equal stakeholders and society and decision makers? I think that really has such a trickle down effect.

Kassia Binkowski
I mean, it's fascinating, because you guys are talking about dismantling, for lack of a better word, so many elements of parenthood. From role models, to fashion to education to exposure. I mean, there's so many challenges in order to start to break down some of those gender stereotypes and expectations. I think what's really interesting here is that the jobs and the career tracks that so many girls are steered away from, actually present the potential to be some of the highest paying jobs in the US down the road. So by steering these little girls away, we're actually just like fueling the system of future wage gaps and wealth disparities between men and women and only continuing to reinforce you know, the gender differences in society at large.

Heide Iravani
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So let's talk about Piccolina again. You now have created this company that is trying to combat some of these gender stereotypes from an early age. Tell us what is the mission, what is the goal, and what are you actually seeing through the work that you've been doing?

Heide Iravani
Yeah, so at a very high level for folks who are not familiar, Piccolina is a mission driven kids lifestyle brand, dedicated to girls and more generally, kids' empowerment. So we launched a year and a half ago with our popular Trailblazer collection of T shirts and other apparel, depicting famous historical female leaders like Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and Rosa Parks. We also have a discovery collection of apparel and accessories that features graphic design themes relating to topics like STEM, the arts, and other areas that we believe are important to introduce to children early on. When we first launched, we were fortunate enough to be featured in Oprah's favorite things. And really, right out of the gate, we began to garner a cult-like following among our customer base. And I think that's really because our mission resonated with so many people. And we've really leaned into that. And we work really hard at Piccolina, not only to incorporate our mission of girls empowerment and kids empowerment, but also broader values of inclusion and social justice.

Kassia Binkowski
I mean, in the 18 months or so that you guys have been around, you guys have seen incredible growth. And full transparency, I am a customer, my son has worn your face masks for the past 18 months until they literally like disintegrated on his face from so much wear. You know, so I'm a huge fan here. But you have done this as female entrepreneurs, which we know is not always an easy path. What has been that experience? What barriers have you faced as women raising funds, growing the startup? What has been the gender experience there?

Heide Iravani
So that's a really interesting question. I think we're always kind of curious to know, like how, particularly when speaking with prospective investors, for example, how could this conversation have gone differently if we weren't not only a female owned and operated company, but a company whose focus is on children's consumer products? I think now we've started to garner credibility, and our experience is changing a bit, but when when when Piccolina was a concept, and before Piccolina had developed to the kind of traction that we have today, it was very hard to be taken seriously. And even among peers. And friends. I think there was a knee jerk reaction to say, "Oh, that's cute. You have a kids clothing company, is that like, your hobby, are you quitting work? And is that so you can spend more time with your family?" And it's hard to come up with a response to that that's polite, right? So it's been an interesting experience. And I'll let Emily...

Emily Clifford
Yeah, I mean, that for sure. But then additionally, both Heide and I both were pregnant and had babies in the midst of starting this company, in the first six months of this company. And so I think it was also really hard to hear people say, "Well, how are you going to do both? Like there's no way you're going to be able to do it". And, you know, two weeks after delivering my second, we were at a trade show in New York, and everyone's like, "I just can't believe you're doing this". And, you know, I think it was, in a way, it was insulting to be like, why can't you believe that I'm doing this? Like, this is absolutely believable. But it's also, it's been really exciting to see us succeed, and to look back on those people and be like, we did it, and we're still doing it. And it's just like, it gives you this motivation. And this power that I think we always knew we had, but we never really were able to put it to use. And so it's been really cool to have all of those challenges and be up against those challenges and succeed.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, and in such a relatively short period of time. But I'm curious, Emily, because something that that we've spoken about internally is, essentially the lies that our mothers told us, which is that we could do all of it at the same. You know, that you can be an entrepreneur, and a mother and work and be present for your kids and all of that. And that it's really not, it's not a fair, you know, it's utopia, right? It's not fair to believe that you can have everything at the same time, as a mother. So for those people who said, I can't believe you did it, I kind of understand where they're coming from, because two weeks postpartum, you're bleeding still, like your body has not even recovered, right?

Emily Clifford
Yeah.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So how did you navigate that in a way that made you feel confident as a businesswoman? And as a new mother?

Emily Clifford
That's a great question. I think some of it, I don't even know myself, it was more just, I had to do it for myself, I had to do it for this commitment that I had made. And, you know, my entire life, I have been taught to... the values that have been instilled in me, you know, from a very young age are ones that I carry with me forever. And so they really inform all of my decisions and all of my actions. And it's very important to me to be dependable, and to have follow through and to be, you know, persistent. And so, you know, that was just another example of me not falling back on my duties. And so like, when I think about, you know, being two weeks postpartum, and being at the show with Heide, you know, obviously, I'm a mother and my children come first, but also, it's really important for me, to have my children see a successful working mother, and I want them to see that, you know, it is possible to kind of wear a lot of hats and do a lot of things and, and be committed to a lot of things at one time. And you can do that.

Heide Iravani
I also want to jump in and just say for the record, that I did not demand that.

Kassia Binkowski
I was gonna say, you should clarify this!

Emily Clifford
She definitely did not.

Heide Iravani
Both Emily, and I think, you know, I think our expectations for ourselves, we recognize can't be expectations for everyone. And there are so many different ways that you can live your life and different priorities. And for Emily and me personally, you know, maintaining careers has been really important. But it is hard to do everything at once. And certainly to do everything well at once. And, you know, we recognize that and I think that's gonna be a very interesting challenge as we scale as a company in terms of our headcount. Because with a lean team, I think everybody feels so invested, that it just is a natural thing to throw yourself into the work. It's come very naturally to Emily and me. But when you're talking about a couple of 100 employees, I mean, that's when you know, you have to be prepared for people. I mean, people need to take space for themselves, and women should not have to go to work two weeks after having a baby and, and so, you know, these are things that are gonna have to evolve internally for us, I think as we become bigger,

Kassia Binkowski
Which makes sense and it's natural. I mean, I think I really appreciate the authenticity of two women building a brand around raising strong women. You know, while in the thick of motherhood themselves, I think that you know, there's there's a compelling story there, for sure. What I'm curious to know is, what are the gender struggles that you guys have at home right now? I mean, we all know that as our kids grow, the challenges as parents are constantly evolving. You know, it's easy when they're little to control their wardrobes and to put the science equipment on the dress for my two year old, it's harder when she's picking it herself, you know, at age 5,6,7. To be clear, she picks it herself right now. We've already crossed that bridge, but what does it look like right now? What are you guys facing?

Heide Iravani
It's really interesting. So you know when Piccolina was an idea becoming, you know, becoming a reality my daughter was two and then three years old and she was still at the stage where I had a lot of influence over what she wore.

Kassia Binkowski
And just to be clear, I love like, I still have it with my five year old son, he couldn't care less, he'll put on whatever I want. And it's a wonderful thing.

Heide Iravani
But you know, as my daughter has gotten older, she's now five, I cannot pick out what she wears. I mean, she is a very headstrong girl, and I'm thankful for that. But she won't wear a dress, actually. And she pretty much dresses like a boy. And I have to admit that part of it concerns me only, because I do worry that it's coming from this place of equating femininity with weakness. And, you know, because for example, I think still like 80% of lead characters in books and movies are male. And when there are female lead characters they're usually like the sidekick.

Sabrina Merage Naim
But I guess that's to my question about how to make sure that the pendulum isn't swinging to the other extreme, right? Because, again, you know, you said that you're set out to displace princess culture, which I know that Kassia is very into that idea. And I think that I, as a mother struggle with the fact that my daughter is so into the princess culture, right? And it's, I think, less coming from me and more just what is around all the time, like, if she could wear her Cinderella dress every single day to school, she would be happy as a clam. And how do I not discourage that side of her, while also encouraging the other aspects, right, that are such an important piece of the building blocks of of a strong girl? It's something that I struggle with a lot.

Heide Iravani
I struggle with it a lot, too, every day. And Emily, and I joke about the irony of it given, you know, Piccolina, because he would think that I would have the answers here, but I don't. And, you know, I think it's really about becoming an "and" person and not an "or" person, and, you know, leaning into all the possibilities that a person can be at the same time.

Kassia Binkowski
I think there's also this instinct that I've had as a mother of young children, and still, you know, very new to this, of course, but, you know, I see my job personally as curating what they're exposed to as much as I can. And that naturally comes with shutting a lot of things out, right? Like I say no to a lot of things in different ways. From toys, to the fashion choices that I'm not saying no to their requests, I'm saying no to the things that I'm gonna buy right now, before they're making requests. You know, and I guess there's a flip side to that, that curation in my mind has been closing doors in certain ways. There is an alternative style of parenting would just be opening it all up and showing them everything in the full spectrum of choices. And, you know, who knows what's more or less effective in terms of raising young feminists. But boys and girls, I can definitely see the way that I've been inclined to make those choices.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I also want to highlight the importance of how this comes to fruition in schools, right, because in doing some research, even for this conversation, I found one article which was talking about how in 2015, Israeli researchers divided sixth grade exams into two sets for grading, one batch was graded by the teachers, and included students names, and the other contained no student names and was graded externally. And in math teachers graded boys higher, while external graders rated the girls higher. So the teachers even, have these kind of internal biases, which is so culturally just saturated that it's hard to disconnect. We can't even expect, you know, parents are struggling with this. It is so prevalent in our media, in the clothes that are available. We can't expect our teachers to just be able to disconnect themselves from the reality of how they are growing up in the culture that they are raised. How do we create a healthier school system so that those biases aren't placed on our kids even from such an early age? I mean, it's such a challenge.

Heide Iravani
Before coming to this podcast I actually came directly from taking my five year old daughter to her kindergarten screening which is mandated by state law in New York. And as a gift to all of the incoming kindergarten students, they gave them all a book with a little boy on the front of it wearing a crown, called to the king of kindergarten, I was super happy that the boy was a brown boy, he was a person of color. In some ways, it seems like a step forward and two steps back because now my daughter is super excited about this book. But once again she is being exposed to another character in which the main or the another book in which the main character is a boy. And to her that means something it means like, there must be a reason why all the characters are boys. And it's really hard when you talk about inherent bias and teachers even in yourself. I ask myself every day, what am I doing that is inadvertently sending the wrong message? I don't know what the answer is, either except to always try to ask yourself those questions and try to be better.

Kassia Binkowski
I mean, turns out parenting is an overwhelming amount of responsibility.

Heide Iravani
Wait, what? Ha.

Kassia Binkowski
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Sabrina Merage Naim
Breaking Glass is a production of Evoke Media. Evoke is a nonprofit organization that exists in order to elevate the people and stories that are working to make the world a more unified and equitable place. Learn more at weareevokemedia.com