Authenticity, retouching, and representation

Sarah Dubbeldam Transcript

Sabrina Merage Naim
From the Evoke Media I'm Sabrina Merage Naim, with me is Kassia Binkowski, and this is Breaking Glass - a series of conversations with women around the world who are shattering glass ceilings and challenging social norms. They are audacious, gutsy, and their stories are echoed across borders and generations in a rallying cry that is changing the narrative for women everywhere. Today's conversation is with Sarah Dubbeldam, founder and CEO of Darling magazine. Sarah founded the company with a commitment to reinvent the narrative around womanhood to produce content that was authentic and meaningful to women who were tired of being pigeonholed and boxed in by mainstream media. A few years into that journey, she led the magazine to make a radical commitment to never retouch the women they photograph.

Kassia Binkowski
Yes, Sabrina Darling was the first magazine in the United States to commit to no retouching. And I loved hearing Sarah reflect on both the motivation for and the implications of that decision. We're talking about what it looks like to really take the road less traveled to defy the status quo to reflect a more nuanced and authentic image of womanhood through both pictures and storytelling.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Absolutely, and Sarah shares her own evolution, from modeling, to entrepreneurship to motherhood, and we are here for it. Take a listen. So, Sarah, I'd love to start the conversation at the beginning of your career in media before you were leading Darling magazine, which is a story we'll get into momentarily, you were a model. For six years, you were represented by one of the top modeling agencies in LA, and we'd love to hear a little bit about that experience, what it was like for you, tell us kind of the good, the bad, the ugly.

Sarah Dubbeldam
Sure, I just I fell into that, because I needed some extra money on the side, I just randomly went to an open call, and then got signed. And I was like, great, I have no idea what's happening, let's do this. And it was a wild, wild ride. I think a lot of it was was fun, it was creative. For me, I think that working with photographers, and stylists, and a whole team on a shoot can be really great. I worked for clients like Target and Kohl's or more commercial stuff like Chase Bank. I was always the backyard barbecue mom type vibe. But I think that the hard part about it to me was just over and over and over seeing how narrow the beauty standards are. When you go into an agency, they measure the width of your neck and your shoulders and your bicep and your forearm and your wrist, all the way down your legs. Then every time when you walk in or go to visit your agents, it's like "hello", but then they look you up and down from top to bottom. One time I remember walking in and my agent said, "You know, we have this big athletic brand that's wanting to pick you, but it looks like you've gained a little bit of weight. What have you been doing to work out?" And just being greeted with that type of response is just so physical. I understand that modeling is trying to display clothing. And that makes sense, but I was just really tired of the measuring, and then every time you go into an audition, there's a sheet that you fill out that says "hips, waist, etc.", and you have to fill that out every time. So over and over and over, you're just thinking about what size you are and how that equates to how beautiful you are all the time. So for a certain client, they're like, "we're looking for only girls this size". And I know a lot of that has changed in the past 10 years, which is amazing. But for me, I think that that monotony was hard, and it was depressing. It just makes you think all the time about how you look, and that was really part of what prompted me to think about Darling and who created these standards. Why are we playing this game over and over and over again?

Sabrina Merage Naim
I can't imagine being under that level of scrutiny every day, that kind of so specific physical... I mean, you said that you're being compared, you're being measured. Physically measured, like with a measuring tape, but also measured against everyone else who's showing up to these to these calls, these casting calls or these modeling calls. And the pressure of that is so intense, the pressure of that is really something that physically I think ways heavy. And I just want to kind of go back to what you alluded to, which is that things have maybe shifted industry-wide over the last 10 years, because from the outside looking in the industry seems to have evolved tremendously. You're seeing now so much more of a spectrum of shape and size and color, but the standards seem still impossibly high, the standards of perfection. So what are you seeing, as now an outsider looking in in terms of industry evolutions? What are the things that have changed? And what are the things that are still the same?

Sarah Dubbeldam
I think what's definitely changed is in very large corporations, like, Target, just seeing all different types of women all over the store. In windows going down the street. I mean, that is amazing to me. I think still, though, there are still categories. You're still a straight model, or you're a plus model, you know, so there's still these buckets that we're putting people in. And I understand people wear different sizes of clothes. And of course, stylists have to know what size you are. But it's also really interesting to think about just the idea of tokenism versus just authentic beauty, where it's like, "okay, we're doing a shoot, so we have to have all of these people in it". And sometimes it just feels so contrived, where it's like, why not have a shoot where just all the people look one way? So it's really hard to strike that balance. And I understand, I've been guilty of that in the past when I'm directing photoshoots, because you want to make sure everyone's represented, but still, there's all these different categories. So I think we could definitely move toward, how does it feel even more authentic?

Kassia Binkowski
It makes perfect sense. It also seems like an impossibly hard job to do, which we're gonna get into in a second. And before we do, I'm curious, what was the impact on your mental health when you were inside that space? I mean the media has a very complicated relationship with women's mental health at large. And here, you were on the inside of it. Here you are being subjected to that scrutiny. What you're describing makes me cringe, you know, I I don't have a scale in my house. I never have. I never want to, so that level of scrutiny is unfathomable to me. What did that look like for you on the inside? How hard was that mentally and physically?

Sarah Dubbeldam
During that time, there was about a two year period where I went through a really long bout of anxiety and depression, where I could hardly drive on the freeway. I would get extreme panic attacks. And I didn't really equate it to that, like, "why am I so sad and having all these issues all the time?" But looking back, I think it was just the monotony of that day to day and not really working from my strengths. I'm creative, and I'm a writer. There's so many other things to me besides how I look. So just having your work every day be focused on that, it just made me start to question, "what is my purpose? Is this is this all I'm here for?" I'm getting older, and my agent said I am gaining weight, and just thinking about that over and over, it's just not healthy. We're all whole people. Part of us is how we look, but so much more is what's going on inside. And I think it was just too much focus on external for me, and I wasn't really working within my passions.

Kassia Binkowski
What was the tipping point for you? When did you decide to walk away?

Sarah Dubbeldam
Well, I had started, Darling while I was still doing some modeling on the side, because I couldn't afford to run my company, so I still had that. So I was like, "oh, I'll do this campaign here and there if a shoot comes up". So it was about a year into Darling when I was able to quit. I just I felt like I was playing both sides. Because Darling was obviously a movement. I wouldn't say against all the modeling, and all the models and all the agents, but just an alternative and a different perspective on what beauty can look like. So being in the middle of that industry, that was really educational and awesome for me to see while I was working on something that was an alternative type of movement for women. It was actually really helpful to be in the middle of it because I could see it all and I knew how it was functioning, and what was causing it, and everything it stemmed from. So that was really interesting to be doing both of those things for a while. Then finally being able to quit and then starting to work with my old agent looking models for my magazine. It was amazing.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So here you are, you were still pretty young at this point, and you had six years of modeling under your belt, which is not an insignificant amount of time actually in the industry. But, not as glamorous as everyone thinks, dealing with some of the mental health challenges and some of the stigmas of the industry. Meanwhile you founded your magazine Darling, with a commitment to a much more authentic female narrative. You were telling stories that women want to read that really reflect them. You're maintaining a voice that feels like an easy conversation between old friends, and the content is much more relatable and meaningful. How would you describe your editorial style? And more specifically, what do you feel was missing from mainstream media that you really wanted to solve with Darling?

Sarah Dubbeldam
When I started, Darling, it was the idea of how we've lost mentorship, and our culture. Back in the day, like Jane Austen type days, women used to learn all different types of skills, or they used to have mentors and learn all these different types of things. And now, I don't know how to do anything, I don't know how to cook, I don't know how to deal with my relationships. I don't know how to deal with anxiety, I don't know how to deal with a breakup. And I found that I was googling so many problems that I had, or how to do so many things. And I was like, I wonder if there's a solution to have an editorial process where instead of having a bunch of editors write articles all the time, pulling in women who have had experience with whatever topic we are covering. Whether it's anxiety, or depression, or hosting or cooking, or literally any topic, pulling in women who have real life experiences and stories to write and speak to that. Just like you would if you were going through, and thought, "Oh, I'm going through this and wonder which one of my friends could relate to me right now", you would call that friend. So it was really, how can this magazine be the voice of a friend or even a mother or a grandmother? Just to feel like it's nurturing you with wisdom and real life advice that is coming from someone who's been through that.

Kassia Binkowski
Did you have women in your life that were examples of that? Did you have those relationships, those mentors, that set that gold standard for you of what you wanted to offer your audience?

Sarah Dubbeldam
I have, I've had so many women in my life. From my own mother to other mother figures, my grandmother's were amazing. And so many of my friends I just looked up to. I just felt like they had wisdom beyond their years, and I had a community and circle of women around me that we were just always going to each other for advice. I trusted them because I wanted my life to look like theirs, in a sense. Like if you want to be a mother, you're like, I want my life to look like you as a mother. You want to get advice from people you admire, and so it was just that natural process that I was doing. I was like, how can we mimic this on a larger scale for women, where if they feel like they don't have anyone in their life, they could find one of our consistent writers or the voice of the magazine that would speak to them and make them feel like they're not so alone.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, which I think really speaks even above and beyond the mentorship and the authentic stories. It's really a sense of community and camaraderie that people and especially women are seeking. And it's so opposite, frankly, of some some of the rag magazines and tabloids that are out there, that exist really to compromise the quality of life for some of the individuals that they profile in order to sell more issues. It's no secret that the American public loves a downfall story, right? They just eat it up. And there are media publications that really focus on that. I'm just curious if now, eight years after starting Darling, in a very different direction, the more authentic approach, if you're seeing anything shift towards a better future in general for the media. Are there other publications that are following suit? Are there other companies that are seeing that and saying "we're not going to compromise our value system just to sell a few more copies"?

Sarah Dubbeldam
Yeah, I'm starting to see some things out there. I think there's a lot of topics that people are talking about that they used to not, like a lot of awareness around mental health and women being more honest about what's going on. So I am seeing that a little bit across the board. I'm still pretty disappointed in the tabloids and what's at the grocery store and just the way that people, not only worship but critique celebrities. For us whenever we'd interview celebrities, of which we've interviewed quite a few, I would really try intentionally to barely talk about whatever show they're on or what their beauty routine is, or who their chef is or their workout routine. So many people are trying to obsess over celebrities' life and we're like "what's going on with you? What's internal mental dialogue? Are there any charities that you support? What do you care about"? And really trying to move towards seeing them as people. What does the public dialogue look like around others? I think that we're really struggling right now in culture with dialogue and with social media, and even on topics that are maybe more vulnerable, or people are trying to address there's a lot of attack that can come with that. People are really sensitive too, online, and there's not a lot of dialogue. We'll post it a headline and someone will just write "unfollow". I'm like, "Well, did you even read the article"? They're like, "that's like an ageism article". I'm like, "No, actually, the article was about aging gracefully, so if you actually read the article, you would see..." So I see a lot of quick snap judgments, and it's become a harder environment to talk about things for some reason. I've seen that off a lot of platforms and you know, lamented with a lot of different editors about that. How are we able to talk about things without offending someone as well, so it's become an interesting landscape.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I will say, though, that there's a divisiveness and a feeling of such a divide that people are just looking for something to be angry about, especially on the internet, that transcends media, for sure. Whether it's politics, social issues, environmental issues, the divisiveness is so much more extreme today than it feels like it has been ever. And I was talking to my aunt who is an author, and she writes novels and the publishers are now kind of forcing writers to have these editors to go through, basically PC editors, to make sure that their content isn't offensive. But it's like you're writing from a creative place. So we've kind of gone to such an extreme there with this feeling of being offended about everything. So it must be a very sensitive environment for you to be navigating,

Sarah Dubbeldam
Even if you're trying to give people solutions for anxiety, some people will say, "Well, this is so sensitive for people who have had clinical anxiety". I'm like, "No, actually I wrote this article, and I have had that before. So I'm just trying to give tips to help". So, yeah, you kind of can't win. I think it's always just trying to come from a place of love and compassion and just letting people accept it as they are, but we can't stop talking about things that matter. So it's a hard environment for just a lot of words flying around the internet. But I'm hoping we'll grow as a society in that way.

Kassia Binkowski
Hopefully. Was it hard? I mean, building up that readership was there a desperation for that type of content, or was publishing something so radically different than what was already out there... did that take some time to build an appetite for?

Sarah Dubbeldam
I think what sparked a lot of our following was our mission statement. I think it was a bit of a shocking statement, I had a lot of anxiety when I put that on Kickstarter. That's how we started. I started with that statement, saying that women have been seen this way for a really long time, and we need to change it to this, and talking about, let's get back to some old fashioned ideas of developing our inner character versus just thinking about how we look all the time. And then saying a really strong message of worth and purpose to women. And that message really started to resonate really strongly. I think it was early on, we got picked up, our magazine got picked up by Anthropology and so that helped with a lot of our initial spread, and we were really early to Instagram. I think it was it was fresh, it was new. Kickstarter wrote about us and they said, "this is one of the freshest things we've seen for women in a long time". I think it was just a little bit of a breath of fresh air of someone saying, let's stop photoshopping, let's include all different sizes of women and let's have real conversations about things that matter and not be extreme on either end. Not be extreme, crazy, hateful feminists but then not be passive on the other side, like what's the balance? Anything good in life, there's a balance to it.

Sabrina Merage Naim
You mentioned this before, which is something that we'd really like to talk about, which is that beyond the commitment of authenticity in the narrative, you started to question the visual standards that you were upholding in the magazine and decided to stop retouching photos. This is something that obviously industry-wide is utilized heavily, the airbrushing, the photoshopping, the making the size smaller, the lips bigger, the eyes bigger. Who brought it up, and was there any hesitation in just saying "you what this is the direction we're gonna go now"?

Sarah Dubbeldam
I remember the moment we brought it up, we were at a staff meeting early on with Darling and we were having a conversation, there was about six women at the table. Our photo producer, Rebecca, and I just brought it up and we said, "what if all of our photoshoots don't Photoshop women?" And it started this huge conversation, and all these girls were like, "Well, what about these exceptions? Like say you go to Coachella and you get a fever blister on your face?" Or someone said something weird like, "what if you get a big zit that's not normally there? Like, would you take that off on the day of a photoshoot?" And then we all looked around the table at our own faces, and you're like, okay. In this moment, some of us have pimples, some of us have scars, some of us have eczema, and in this moment is real life. So if we're really wanting to represent real life, it's moment by moment, it's not always your best moment. And so if we're capturing people as they are, then we have to leave them as they are in that moment, and not pretend like next week that will be gone or not be there or this or that might happen. So just that idea of reality that we're always trying to change and bend as humans, you know, we just said, "oh, let's just draw a line in the sand. And let's put it in the magazine. And let's tell the photographer's that they're not allowed to do it". But it was crazy, early on, photographers would send us retouched images. But thankfully, my producer used to be a retoucher. So she would be able to tell and shoot email be like, "hey, why has this happened?"

Sabrina Merage Naim
You mean they would try and sneak it in?

Sarah Dubbeldam
Oh, yeah, all the time. And then she would call them and they would say, "well, this will reflect poorly on my portfolio, if I'm trying to book other jobs, if they see that the women I shoot don't look perfect". And so she had a chance to have all these conversations with photographers, I've talked to so many publicists, you know about celebrities, where they would agree to it, but then they would see a photo and they would be like, "Well, can you just add more hair to the side of her face? Because she looks like she has like a bald spot or something"? I'm like, "No, A, it doesn't look like she has a bald spot. B, we agreed to this so let's choose a different photo, or whatever you need to do to keep that standard". If we're gonna say it, we actually have to have the integrity to actually do that, because anyone that worked inside of Darling would know if we ever bent the rules. So I'm proud to say that we've really, really stuck to it. And it's been awesome.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I have to say, it's really interesting to hear about the trickle down effect, that it's not just the publishing companies or the magazine executives or the modeling agencies, that it went actually all the way down to the photographer that would say, "this will reflect poorly on me on my portfolio on my career", which is something that I definitely would not have considered and is super interesting. But I wonder a little bit where the line is for you guys. Because retouching photos, you've decided that's something you're not going to do. That is a commitment you've made. But with makeup, you can contour, you can put false lashes, you can do extensions in your hair. All of these things that frankly, I'm sitting here wearing some makeup, so I'm not against any of that. But I'm just curious in terms of beauty standards and expectations. Where do you guys draw that line of this is authentic and this is too much?

Sarah Dubbeldam
Yeah, I mean, we love makeup, I think makeup is like art. I was an art major in college. And so I really enjoy art. And for us, we would always just try to do makeup that's really light, like a girl would wear normally. Of course, we have makeup artists, but we would use a lot of tinted moisturizers and dewy face like something that just feels fresh. I would always say make her look just fresh and natural. And of course, we would do some fun articles on doing a crazy eyeshadow and have a bright green or something, or a pop lip. But we're about the idea of makeup as accentuating what you already have versus covering up, and so we would say, "oh, that girl, her lips really stand out, let's put a red lip on her". Not trying to fix anything but accentuate, and it's a different type of lens to look through. It's the same way as saying, when you're writing a fashion article, "to make your legs look longer do this", instead of using that type of language, it's saying things like "straight leg pants look great on all types of women". It's just about the language and the way that you speak to people, and so even the way that I would speak to makeup artists, it's not looking at her and being like, "Oh, she has a lot of acne. Can you put this or that on?" It's more like "Let's do this, let's put this eyeshadow" and just not even seeing those things. Just looking at the whole person. I had one model who had cystic acne that was literally all over her face, and you look at her portfolio, and she has no acne. And we said, we actually want to do an article about acne, would you be willing to show your bare face and have this girl write an article about acne and how it can be such a struggle, and she just started crying, she said, "I've never been able to show my bare face as a model, and I'd be honored". So we have this really great shoot of her with no makeup on, but it was really meaningful to her to be a part of that. She's like, "I can't get rid of it. I've tried. I've tried everything. It's here with me right now". But it was just really amazing to show people a little bit of a different experience that's less uptight, and doesn't have so much anxiety about creating this image of perfection all the time.

Kassia Binkowski
So Sarah, can we talk about the elephant in the room for a second? Our audience can't see you. Some perhaps might already know you, but you meet every standard of beauty that the industry measures us against right? Tall, blonde, successful, mother, entrepreneur, you check every box. And I don't say that to belittle any of the hard work that you continue to do. Nothing that you're doing comes easily. And yet, you are using your platform to defy the status quo to broaden our collective definition of femininity of beauty. How have you reconciled your own experience with what you're doing to push the industry towards inclusivity?

Sarah Dubbeldam
Yeah, thanks for bringing that up. That's been a constant struggle. It's a mental struggle for me all the time. People will be like "what do you know about this? You're telling me to feel fine about my body, but you fit these standards", not saying that I do anymore. That was 15 years ago. But you know, for me, it's really my experience struggling with extreme anxiety and depression, that has made me realize that it really doesn't matter what we look like, because whatever's going on in your mind is your reality, every day. How you think, how you frame the world, what you see, how you see yourself and struggling with really deep anxiety, and depression, and even having suicidal thoughts at times when I was going through that made me realize it didn't matter how I looked. I was struggling with who I was as a person, and why I was on this Earth and all these different things, and that's really the thing that matters. So for me, I'm trying to help work towards helping people see beyond the surface of people and of one another, you know, even when you're looking at a model thinking, "Oh, my gosh, I want to be her, I want to look like her", you don't know her. You don't know what her internal struggle is like, and you really might not want to be inside of her mind. But you don't know that. And I've known a lot of models, and a lot of celebrities that are the most unhappy people I've ever met. And so I think knowing that reality is something I tried to speak from, and I realized that people might look at me and have that snap judgment, especially if I'm, like I used to do public speaking on a stage or something like that, I would actually bring it up and say, "here's the thing, we're all judging each other externally. But all that really matters is how happy we are on the inside, because then that's where everything else flows from, and you can really learn to accept your body and how you look, no matter what. It's very hard for a lot of us but it is possible. But it's more about that mental dialogue and health. And so just coming back to that conversation of mental health, I think it's absolutely imperative to switch the narrative to that, mostly all the time.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I so appreciate your honesty, in going through your struggle with mental health and the reality that we don't know what's going on in any individual's brain or their experience or their struggles. Especially when you see someone on a page or on Instagram, or social media of any kind that we feel like we know, because of what people post or because what of what people outwardly portray, that we know what their life is like that. It seems so glamorous, it's so upscale. It's not, right? And we've heard that from people, we've heard that from even social media influencers who have been broken mentally because of the pressure, because of this feeling of having to keep up the facade. So that leads me to question a little bit how social media fits into and fuels the social pressures for perfection. If you can talk a little bit about how there's a meaningful difference between filters and curation, and what we see on social media versus the retouching that you've committed against and it's kind of the line that I was alluding to before. Makeup and contouring versus retouching, but this is kind of different how do you reconcile in terms of social media, some of the pressures that we're seeing, and the not even just filters, but I would say kind of this alternative reality that we are experiencing, and how is that impacting people?

Sarah Dubbeldam
I think it's so unhealthy. And I think it's literally one of the biggest problems of our society. I think social media is great, it connects us. But I think that it is just unbelievably unhealthy and difficult for women. And just the amount of scrolling and information that you're able to take in is absolutely unprecedented. And so seeing things over and over and pressure and comparison, all within just a few minutes of scrolling. And all the filters, everything. It's like our whole life is this huge pie, and we're literally seeing this tiny sliver of people's life. But yet we look at that, and we attribute like, "oh, their whole life must be like that, like, they're an amazing mom, and their house is clean all the time. And they're skinny and perfect and don't have any acne and they get a workout every day". That's really not what's going on at all, but it's so hard to tell yourself that. And so I think for me, I found the only thing that I can do is just spend less time on it and really try to follow people that I know more than I just absolutely have no idea who they are. And I'm just judging them and watching them for absolutely no reason. I log off of Instagram every single day at 4pm before I go get my son at school at five. So after I post to Darling or post to my Instagram, which I don't a lot, I actually go to settings and hit log out, because I don't have the self control to not scroll. And I don't keep my phone by my bed because I literally do not have the self control to not pick it up because you know you're bored or we're in quarantine or I wonder what other people are doing or what their life looks like. But if we can't learn to focus and have solitude with ourselves and work on who we're becoming and read and engage in things that are that are life giving, and we're constantly obsessing about other people's lives, really missing our own life, that's really hard and I think that's where a lot of anxiety and depression and discontentment comes from because we're not pouring into our own lives, we're obsessing about other people's lives all the time.

Kassia Binkowski
So in the name of authenticity, I think it's easy to share your story and paint this really exciting picture of success and what it's looked like and how awesome it was to do something that nobody else was doing and to kind of defy the status quo. What have been the unforeseen consequences of those decisions of doing something that nobody else in the media is doing? In what ways has it made your life as a entrepreneur harder, to do something that nobody else is doing?

Sarah Dubbeldam
I think definitely in the beginning, it was hard, with the no retouching and having photographers say no to us, celebrities say no to us, people trying to sneak stuff, and I was like, "is this ever gonna really work? Are people ever gonna want images that aren't perfect?" So that was always hard. And I think too, there's a lot of growth that we've said no to. There's a lot of brands that I've said, "No, I don't want to take your money, I don't want you advertising in our magazine. And so I'm naturally a bit of an integris person, I can really stick to my guns pretty easily. I've kind of always been like that since I was younger. So it's something for me that I wouldn't say is hard, but sometimes it does affect your business, because you don't want to sell out. You don't want to just cut corners or do that one thing, because if you do that one thing then it's easier to do the next thing and so for us internally, and for me personally, we just we look at our mission statement. Anytime there's something that just doesn't sit right or a partnership or some photoshoot or whatever it is, an article, and we go back to that mission statement and say, "does this fit within the Darling mission fully and authentically? And is it relatable to us, or would our audience be able to sniff that out?" Because our audience, a lot of them are really diehard fans, and they're committed to the mission, and they want us to be committed to us, and they'll call us out. I love that we've created a brand that people know what Darling is, and they know what it isn't. So I think for me to uphold that, is great.

Sabrina Merage Naim
And frankly, that's the harder path to take. I mean, let's just acknowledge that for a second. It's definitely harder and maybe less lucrative even to stick with the integrity and to stick to your mission. And so I just want to peel back the curtain for a minute. We've talked a little bit about the industry. at large, we've talked about the magazine and the impact that you're having, with your readership, with the people who are even involved in the magazine, let's talk a little bit about the company. Because you talk about the mission, the mission is to honor femininity, and womanhood and all of its complexity and nuance. So what does that look like, in terms of cultivating community focused on support and not suppression, on collaboration and not competition, particularly in the company, the people who are behind the scenes doing the work?

Sarah Dubbeldam
Yeah, I mean, Darling has been created over the years by so many different women, you know, we've had a larger team at times, we've had a smaller team, you know, we've had all different types of roles and trying to figure out what are we doing? We're doing a print magazine, we've done video, we've done events, and now we can't do events. Now we've developed product keynotes, we've had all these different people who have been at the table with Darling and really made Darling what it is. And just that internal company culture, I always say that it starts it starts with us, and are we honoring the mission statement? Are we talking to one another in that way? What does it look like to work together and to work towards this mission? I am glad to say that the women that I've worked with are absolutely incredible. It's always been a really positive environment, it feels energetic, it feels fun to be going against the status quo, you always feel like, you're like Robin Hood all the time. You're like, "Oh, I saw this advertisement, so let's create something that's the opposite of that, without throwing them under the bus". It's saying something more refreshing, so you're always watching together, and when you're on a joint mission to uplift other people, or really gives you a sense of purpose and joy, your work becomes something that's really enjoyable. When you're reading people writing in, saying this article changed my life due to your vulnerability to be able to talk about this. So I think that just the energy and synergy created within that mission makes it such a great place to collaborate with one another. And it really happens naturally, and as a leader, I also try to just always bring it back to that, and say, "am I being thankful? Am I seeing people?" I know I've never perfected that because I'm a CEO, and I'm always running all around, always have the feeling of like, I wish I could thank people more, I wish I could honor people more. I wish I could do all these things. But when you can, what are those small moments where you can see people and you can be grateful for them and realize that they're working so hard, and everybody's working towards this common good? So that it doesn't become a chore because you don't want to lose people in the process of mission.

Kassia Binkowski
Where is the place for men in this conversation? I mean, you're married to another creative, you're raising two little boys. I heard you say at one point, and maybe you've already done this, but you really wanted to interview Tom Hanks. Where's the space for men in a conversation so focused on changing the narrative around women?

Sarah Dubbeldam
Yeah, I think that men are huge in the conversation, I think that they have been, you know, definitely part of the problem, in the type of things that they consume or expect of women in the past. It's interesting, because my husband, Steve actually helped me start Darling. He's a serial entrepreneur, graphic designer, he could literally do all the things. He's super tech savvy, helped build our first website, he designed our first logo, at one point he was the CEO, and now he's the president of the company. So having men that are good men having a seat at the table is really important. I know it's maybe controversial to say this, but I really am against the idea of just pushing all of the men out and saying that it's just all about women all the time. Because I think that we should push all the bad men out for sure. But look for the good men, look for the helpers, look for the ones that want to partner and want to be advocates for healthy ways of thinking, healthy ways of looking at women, perceiving women, treating women, you know, all those things, because the reality is we both exist in society, and it's not going to change. And so what does progress look like? Like I'm saying, I'm always looking at what is actual progress look like? It is about those partnerships and bringing them and saying, you know, we're not saying that you're better than us. We're not saying you know, anything like that, but we're just giving you a voice here like what do you think? And asking them you know, from their perspective, how we can change things too to get other men to listen, to get other men to pay attention. And so there are just so many good men out there. And I think it's important for us to recognize that and not make them just all feel like they're terrible, because there definitely are some terrible ones, but there's some really mean women too. There's some really mean women to work for, as well. And you know, I think it's more about being human, like, how are we treating one another? What is our character like? Do we honor men? Do the men honor us? Asking those good questions. And then if they do, there should be no reason why we shouldn't be able to work together collectively on some of these huge societal, systemic problems.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So you're in a completely different stage of your life now than you were when this journey began. And you started in your early 20s, right after college. You're now a mother, a successful entrepreneur, and we want to understand, what are some of the biggest evolutionary lessons that you've taken away through this as a woman, and how your definition of womanhood has evolved?

Sarah Dubbeldam
I think when I was younger, I was very idealistic. You know, and we wrote that mission statement, being like this is what women should be like, and look like, and initially got a lot of pushback of women saying, "well, isn't this mission statement, just another laundry list of things, you're expecting women to be,". Kind, and this, and that, and smart and witty, and all the different phrases that it lists in our mission statement. And I was pretty shattered. I'm like, "yeah, that's how we should all be, we should all be perfect, and just exactly like this. And it's so black and white". And just meeting so many people and interviewing so many people and seeing the amount of pain that women have been through, and just how different we all are, from all of our experiences, you know, growing up, or things that have happened to us. Just realizing that life, you know, really isn't as black and white, you know, and really, the idea of listening is just so important. So I think as an editor, I've really come to learn to listen and try to see people really for who they are, and just really pull out, you know, that goodness in them and the life and the things that they have to share and curating stories and putting people's stories on display for them and helping them feel honored through that. And so I think it's that idealism, just realizing that things are messy, and then when you become a mother, you think it's gonna look a certain way. And it's really messy, and it doesn't work out. And your kids don't sleep and everything's chaos, and you want stuff to be clean, and it's not and it's just, you know, it layers. Life layers. You are just a girl and then I get married and then I have a man and I have a kid and then I have a business and it just starts to get layered and things get harder. But one of the things that I tried to try to live by and I think my perspective on womanhood is around is just this idea of savoring moments and listening to your own life, like what are the sounds of your own life? What's the music of your own life? What are those moments that seem messy, and how can they be beautiful?

Sabrina Merage Naim
Breaking Glass is a production of Evoke Media. Evoke is a nonprofit organization that exists in order to elevate the people and stories that are working to make the world a more unified and equitable place. Learn more at weareevokemedia.com