Culture, stigma, and female genital mutilation

Ifrah Ahmed Transcript

Sabrina Merage Naim
From Evoke Media, I'm Sabrina Merage Naim, with me is Kassia Binkowski, and this is Breaking Glass - a series of conversations with women around the world who are shattering glass ceilings and challenging social norms. They are audacious, gutsy, and their stories are echoed across borders and generations in a rallying cry that is changing the narrative for women everywhere. Today, we're headed to Ireland to speak with Ifrah Ahmed. We're talking about an incredibly complex and sensitive issue, female genital mutilation. Ifrah, originally from Somalia, talks about her experience as a young girl being cut, the pervasive culture of FGM in her home country and around the world, and her public activism to end the practice.

Kassia Binkowski
Sabrina, you're absolutely right. This is a global issue. More than 200 million girls and women alive today have undergone female genital mutilation. And yet Ifrah really bridges a cultural gap for us. She takes this global issue and shares a deeply personal story.

Sabrina Merage Naim
True. And the thing that I took away from this conversation was how complex this issue really is. It's easy to think about it as being very black and white, right or wrong. But there are numerous repercussions to consider. It's a very dangerous procedure, there are long term physical and mental health implications. And still, it has been passed on from generation to generation. Today's conversation is sensitive. It's eye opening. And it's one that every single one of us can learn something from. Take a listen. Ifrah thank you so much for joining us. We're really looking forward to diving into your pretty extraordinary story. Thank you for being here.

Ifrah Ahmed
Thank you for having me.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So we want to talk about a lot with you. But where we like to usually begin is the root of the story, which is really your childhood. You're in Ireland today, but you grew up in Somalia. And we want to understand a little bit from you about what it was like growing up as a girl in Somalia.

Ifrah Ahmed
Well you know, Somalia is an east African country. Somali people they're very nice people and they are very humble. We are very traditional like Irish because in Ireland you know, people there are just close and they're together. So Somalia it's like that. But a 1991 in Somalia there is a war, a breakdown. And since then, Somalia became one of the most dangerous places in the world, I would say. So I grew up with my grandmother and a lot of other kids because in Somalia you also love having a big family. So there was a bunch of people around and we all grew up with my grandmother and we were just kids when the war broke out. And I don't really know nothing about you know, I didn't know anything. Now I know of course because I came to Ireland, I was educated I went back. But growing up in Somalia I see only blood and rape and you know, killing and that's it. But now when I see when I go back to Somalia, I can go to the beach, I can meet with people, I can give different foods, I can see pictures, even you know, knowing the flak and all that. But when I was a kid, we didn't understand anything. And it's not something that family explained. But when I was a baby, I remember loving this traditional face mask that old women and the big sisters did and I remember stealing it and pulling it on my face and trying to be a big girl and all that and my grandmother never liked it. So I used to be in trouble a little bit. And I think you know, for me growing up in Somalia there was nothing to talk about just bombs and killing and all that. So yeah, it was really hard

Sabrina Merage Naim
So that we're gonna talk a little bit about you having to flee the country during war in a minute but you're touching on something that I think we want to to understand also. What was it like for women around you at the time, what opportunities - or lack thereof - did you see for yourself growing up in terms of marriage education, occupation? Was there a clear understanding for girls and women in the country at the time that there were there would be opportunities for you when you grew up?

Ifrah Ahmed
No, because as I said the only thing you see is blood and killing and rape. So when you're in a situation where you are in your family home, and then you see a man with a gun, and maybe you had the last food at home, or last money to buy food, and this military gun pointed at grandmother, or, you know, any of other adults to take the money and all that. So when you're living in that situation, it's very hard to think of, or even make a decision of what kind of life you want to live. So I never knew any of that.

Kassia Binkowski
What was the day to day? Did you get the chance to go to school? Was that an opportunity for you? The violence started when you were very, very young, as you said, and you didn't leave the country until you were in a teenager. So what was that in between period like for you?

Ifrah Ahmed
Just running around from, you know, bomb attack, and what I know is I just saw military with guns, and people killed and all sorts of different things. And also just being afraid to go out because of the, you know, risk of being killed or anything. So, it just, I was lucky to be leaving in the country.

Sabrina Merage Naim
When you were eight years old, you were cut in Somalia, which is a practice that is very common, particularly in that country, but in many countries around the world. Can you take us back to that day? What can you share about your experience?

Ifrah Ahmed
Well, what I can share is I always describe that, you know, first thing I remember is the sound of the scissors when it actually goes click. And when I close my eyes, I just feel the pain because you know, I remember I you know, like, even if you hurt yourself or something, or if you go and have an operation you get for pain an anesthetic. But imagine when you are cut with scissors, bled, and things like that. And then somebody's having a needle which is really big and just sewing like sewing machine is sewing your own clothes. So I remember all this trauma. And you know, I remember my grandmother was holding me and you know, this man cutting, blood everywhere. And also, I was not the only person. I was one of many girls that who were cut. So I was one of the nine girls who work cut and I remember really when my grandmother was holding me so tight and this man was doing cutting, holding, and sewing like in sewing clothes or just sewing something else so it was not a really good memory. And it's, it's really painful even to talk about because people talk about the differences of FGM, but when I talk about it I talk about the whole thing's the same. Because you know, this is it, there are three differences and oh my god it's so difficult. Imagine scissors, and razor blades, and everything. After using they have been washed and boiled with hot water and used the same to the other girls. And seeing all that and the blood and then again, your legs been tied for 40 days. That is another pain because you have to sit straight for 40 days.

Sabrina Merage Naim
As a little girl.

Ifrah Ahmed
Yeah, as a little girl. You cannot change, you can do nothing. Even you cannot go to the toilet like normal person because you have to sleep on your side, even if you want to. So for me, it's something I really don't go into detail to describe because I love my grandmother. And I know she did it. But I just feel how can I use my voice into a positive way rather than thinking of all the traumas and, you know, the pain I have had.

Sabrina Merage Naim
I honestly can't imagine what you're describing right now I have physical pain, just hearing about it. But what you're saying about your grandmother, I think is really important. Because we have talked to women who have experienced trauma or really negative experiences that sometimes their families were a part of, you know, whether it was, unknowingly or whether it was to protect them, or whether it was part of a culture. It's hard to separate sometimes the love that you have and the love that they have for you, a family member, with sometimes the things that happen to you that are seen as and felt as some of the worst experiences of your life. So often, our families involved in some way. And it's hard to make those separations.

Kassia Binkowski
Ifrah, I want to ask you a question that that might seem obvious to you. But I'm curious, could you have said no? I mean, what was that power dynamic like as a little girl? Could you ever have said no? Could you ever have chosen not to partake in this?

Ifrah Ahmed
No, because we didn't understand the whole concept of female genital mutilation. And also, where I come from, how our life was, how we grew up it is a decision made by family members. So it's not that you have a choice to make on your own. Especially when you're a kid. Forget about when your kid, even when you are adult you cannot even make a decision by yourself. So imagine when you're just eight years old, where you will never have an input for your voice, whatever it is. When now, you talk to kids, you tell them that this is not good, don't do it. This is bad. This is not good. Nobody can harm you. Nobody can do this. This is your rights.

Jeffery Tobias Halter
And not only that, but we understand that there is a lot of stigma and shame around not being cut. Right? So for for you growing up or for other women growing up, you know, being able to stand up and say no, I assume - and please correct me if I'm wrong - but I assume it wasn't even a thought process because it's so ingrained in the culture that this is what women and young girls do. Right? So what was the culture in your community? Were you afraid of the procedure? Was it just accepted as a foregone conclusion? Did you even know? Or did you were just a little girl playing and then this happened?

Ifrah Ahmed
Well, you see, nobody tells anything. Family matters they don't discuss with anybody. See, it's a decision already made by mothers or grandmothers or you know, fathers. So anybody then who is your guardian, they make the decision. So I think that I was trying to escape because my grandmother was holding me so tight. So I did not really understand. And because you see, we go to Holy Quran school, and then we come back. And then when when we come back, we come back with this man waiting for us to cut us. So there's no escape. And even if you ran away, where would you go? In a country where people cannot even afford food to eat, who will keep you there and help you to feed you? You end up on the street, and nothing will happen.

Sabrina Merage Naim
And by "this man," in your case, you mean your grandmother's brother, who who you've said before you felt lucky that it was your grandmother's brother because he was a doctor. And many girls are subject to far worse sanitation and conditions than what you endured. What What was different about your experience? What precautions may maybe were taken for you that weren't taken for others?

Ifrah Ahmed
No I mean, like when I say because he was a doctor, it means that I was thinking, at least he is the man who is a doctor, he would understand the concerns and the pain, and also the future problem for female genital mutilation. So instead of doing it, he would reject it, and explain to grandmother. But when you think the doctor, he said he was a doctor, and he passed away himself as well. So he was a doctor, and he cut. So I couldn't really understand. One you see, a doctors are educated people, and they understand. But still you see doctors are performing it. So this is why I say he was a doctor. But if it was somebody who was ignorant, who doesn't really understand and who doesn't know anything, then I would say the person was not an educated person who would not understand, but a doctor or a nurse, all this talent, you feel at least you you're protected in this case, but I wasn't.

Kassia Binkowski
It makes perfect sense, it makes perfect sense that you would assume that a person with a high level of education in your community would would know better, wouldn't perpetuate this practice. In Somalia, which has some of the highest rates in the world - I mean, it's something like 98% of women above the age of 15 have been cut - there are clearly very deeply ingrained cultural beliefs for continuing this practice. What are those? I mean, why are the adults choosing to continue doing this?

Ifrah Ahmed
The issue is that, like a mother, she was cut. And then you tell her now, because you know, when you work hard, you feel pain. When you give birth, no when you were cut, you bleed. When you get married, you bleed. When you become a girl, you bleed. When you're married, you bleed. Then when you give birth, you bleed. And during your growing up, you have a period problem, kidney problem, all sorts of infections. But still the mothers believe "I was cut. And I want my daughter to feel the pain because I felt the pain." And this is the most thing that I can think mothers are motivated by that. I have asked them this question. And answer I'm getting that let her feel the pain.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, it's it's so surprising to me to hear you say that that is something that mothers have said as a reason for perpetuating this given my my feeling is that we want to protect our children. Right? As mothers, we want to protect our children from enduring pain, even the pain that we endured so much. But it's it sounds like it's a very different mindset.

Kassia Binkowski
Well, and I hear you, I hear you, when you say that there's this, this lifecycle element to it. You bleed when you're cut, you bleed when you go through puberty, you bleed during marriage, you bleed when you go through childbirth. So I see that life cycle element. But still, as a woman, as a mother, I can't imagine not wanting to reduce the pain that my child has to go through.

Ifrah Ahmed
It's because it's the cultural mindset. And also when you grow in a world of people where everybody's doing cycle things over and over and over. It's it will become normal to you.

Kassia Binkowski
What can you tell us about why a community partakes in cutting, in female genital mutilation? What is the motivation? I hear you about why it's perpetuated culturally, that it's normalized. What was the origin of this practice? What was the motivation for it?

Ifrah Ahmed
Well, let's see. I don't know, but it says that FGM or female genital mutilation it came from Egypt 500, back in 500 years ago. So it is cultural, it has no place in Islam. But when you look at to the community, one other thing that promotes FGM is that they believe if the girl don't get the bride price. If she's not cut, she will not have the bride price. So for example, I met with an old man, Somalian, and I was telling him that we should stop on the practice of FGM. And he said, "Ifrah, if I stopped the practice, what about my daughter? When she gets married, nobody will pay the bride price, which is to have 100 camels. The mentality of this man is that if my daughter is not cut, I will not get the the dowry, the bride price.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah. And and it's hard. I mean, this is, like you said, this is a practice that has become so ingrained in the culture for so many generations, that breaking that trend has other implications. And all of that is part of a bigger picture of, you know, changing the perception, educating the community. And I know that that's something that you do a lot with your work and your activism. And I really am curious to understand. You know, you were so young when this happened to you, when did you realize that this practice was unacceptable and unjust? What was that tipping point for you, given you grew up in the culture where it was so normalized, where everyone was undergoing this? What happened that you said, "You know, what, no, I'm going to start fighting against this now"?

Ifrah Ahmed
You see I remember when I get my period, my grandmother would say, "Oh, you have to drink hot water, you have to sleep, you'll be fine." Always hot water, or, you know, tea, tea, tea. But the difference is, when I come to Ireland, I have to go through a medical check. And there is I mean, like, I always knew there was some problem. But I could not figure out where the problem come from, or how would I solve the problem. So when I came to Ireland is when I realized that there was a problem, and I needed to fix it.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So it took you actually leaving that country, leaving that culture to gain a different perspective and understand what you needed to do. Yeah, to even understand that it was a problem in the first place?

Ifrah Ahmed
Yes, I did. But also, the problem is that there was no medical support in Somalia. And that's another reason that I couldn't really go for medical, because it's also another way of saying, it's a very traditional way of saying, if somebody is not feeling well, maybe you need to drink something hot. Even now I'm thinking like, if somebody tells me they have a flu, I tell them, you have to drink lemon and this and that. And this is a common way of thinking.

Sabrina Merage Naim
And by the way, that's, that's the same in my culture. Also, my grandmother would always say drink some hot water. Yeah, and everything is makes you feel drink some tea, you know, those are the medications that we would have.

Ifrah Ahmed
So this is why I say that there was no opportunity to go to a hospital or to go a doctor, to tell your problem, when you always find a way to get a traditional medication which is what your grandmother provide for you.

Kassia Binkowski
So you fled Somalia as a refugee in 2006, when you were 17, is that correct? Yes. Did you come straight to Ireland? What was what was that? Like? What was that journey? like for you?

Ifrah Ahmed
Um, well, it was okay. I came to Ireland. I found a home where I can now say I'm very proud to be Irish citizen.

Kassia Binkowski
Did you come with family?

Ifrah Ahmed
No I was by myself.

Kassia Binkowski
What did your evolution into activism look like? I hear you that you essentially got connected to a medical community here which was the first step. I have to imagine that navigating that personally and privately with a doctor is probably one of the first things that you were able to tackle. But what did it look like from taking such a personal experience into the public realm like this?

Ifrah Ahmed
I tell you the truth. From beginning I was only sharing what's happening to me. And I found what happened to me it happened to many girls and it will happen if I stopped talking. So I was just talking about my problem. And then my problem became a problem of 2 million women worldwide.

Sabrina Merage Naim
From 2006 to 2010 your activism kind of started pretty fast and furious. You founded in 2010. The fra foundation Ireland, in large part to end FGM around the world. What was it like for you taking such a personally traumatic experience public? How did you work up the courage? Like you said, you started by just telling your personal story, but how did you work up the courage to face to be the face of a pretty public campaign?

Ifrah Ahmed
I went to a hospital because when you come to Ireland as a refugee you go through medical checks, so I was living with other refugee women. And then I felt that I really needed to ask them if they've if they've been shocked by the doctors what they have been through - female genital mutilation. So when I sit with a girl, and everybody was saying "same" and "same" and "same". And I said "Okay, now we are in Ireland, so let's talk. Let's tell Irish people that this is our culture. And this is FGM. The ladies there were from different countries in Africa, so they were not willing to risk their lives. And they didn't want it to speak out because they were new in the country. So I decide, I begin talking to my own people like Somalians. I remembered there was a Somali community in Ireland, and I said, "I want to speak with the Somali women." And the guy said, "Why do you want them?" I said, "I need to talk with them about something very important. So you know, women was having cesarian. And then they were told that if they have two babies, they cannot have another baby. And also, they were told that when you have first baby with cesarian, and you have to wait for two years to have a second baby. But like Somali women, we love babies, we deliver more babies. So it's been hard and the women spoke out about, "oh, I've been having cesarian." And then I say, okay, maybe we have to talk about to the community and everyone else. In this case, I decided that that is where I get trouble. I get in a big problem with the Somali community. Because I invited one lady who I know who is a journalist. She was sitting there and somebody was translating for her. And then the old man I was just mentioning earlier who said that if I don't care my daughter I will never get 100 camels and my friend who is a journalist, she picked up that and then she wrote the headline of the article, "Culture clash, Ifrah Ahmed." And this is where my problems began.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Talk about that a little bit more. How did the Somali community respond to you? How about your family even? How did they respond to you suddenly becoming a public activist against FGM?

Ifrah Ahmed
The community - and there's not only the Somali community who practice FGM - they actually fought with me, and complained about me, and calling me and all that. So I talked to someone and I say I am having all these problems. And the person said, go to the police and tell them that private numbers are harassing you and the police can target and can track the numbers. So I went to the police. I went to the police. I told him, "Oh, I have a problem. Because I talked to this. And these people are you know, people are calling me. And they're telling me you know watch your shadows, you know you'll be killed, this and that, you are shamed." And the police say, "Oh, then don't talk about the culture." And then I got really upset. I was so annoyed. I was sitting in a very nice area in the lake. And I was thinking, I was thinking that, I remember that the girls that were at the hostel, they didn't really speak out. So I took the risk. And then I said now, I won't help people that FGM should be stopped or maybe people should talk about. It happened to us. But why would that we allow the girls who are born in Ireland and raised in Ireland to go through such trauma that we faced. That is the day I felt that I have a voice. And I said I don't want to be the victim but I want to be the voice. I started my campaign and now I became a really public figure.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So I want to just educate our audience that thanks in large part to Ifrah bringing this issue to the front of the public eye in Ireland, the Irish Parliament passed a bill in 2012 banning the practice of FGM in the country. It also made it illegal to take a child from Ireland to have the procedure done in another country where it remains legal. And under this bill, medical professionals will be taught about FGM and how to treat women who have been victimized by it. Similar to Ifrah's experience coming from Somalia, to Ireland, going to a doctor and having that experience of a doctor who maybe wasn't as aware of the practice and what to do about it.

Ifrah Ahmed
And since I went back to Somalia, we have been working with the community, and also the media and then religious leaders. So for our goal is the United Nation's resolution to end FGM by 2030.

Kassia Binkowski
I was just going to ask, you talk about going back to Somalia to do some of this work - what is your reception there? What is what inroads have you been able to make in a culture where this is so deeply ingrained? I mean, you said yourself, some 98% of girls and women have been cut. So how in the world do you start to change something that's so deeply ingrained in the culture?

Ifrah Ahmed
Did you see my picture on Google?

Kassia Binkowski
Yes.

Ifrah Ahmed
Did you see how I dressed? A lot of earrings and things like that? When I came to Ireland, I changed my lifestyle to be having like, European Somalian Irish culture. So I went back to Somalia dress, how I was dressing while I was in Dublin. So first time, you know, sitting in front of the religious leaders, women's groups, and also the media, and speaking about female genital mutilation. And then I remember one of the guys, he stood up and he said, "Go back where you come from." He said, "Go back your country." So I looked at him and said, "I thought I was Somalian." He said, "Go back to Ireland." And then I felt that "Why he was saying that?" And then people said "Look, look around you and look yourself." And yes, I looked around me, and then I looked at myself, I am completely different. Because, you know, I adopted a different culture, and I go with my own style, which is out of the whole concept of Somalia, because women dress in long dresses, black covers, no makeup, nothing, no, no red lipstick, or whatever. But I went back with all that time. And then people didn't want to stick with me. But I changed that concept. I feel that I have to readopt my own culture, where I wanted to be part of the society again. So I changed all my look. And then I said, "You know what? I can tell now where I come from?"

Kassia Binkowski
Did that help?

Ifrah Ahmed
Yes it did. So actually, it took me a long time when I'm in Ireland now, to go back and use all the makeup and earrings and things like that, at least in this way. It's hard for me to actually maintain. And so they they are not seeing me as the woman who exposed a different culture, different mindset, and now coming back and telling them what I was told.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So some something comes up for me. And I, I just want to understand your perspective on this, which is, how much of that reaction and response to you was because you were "an outsider" suddenly? And how much of it was because you're a woman?

Ifrah Ahmed
Yes. I mean it's all one. I mean, yes, I am a woman. And same time, I came and left the country. And then now I go back, and I'm telling them don't cut you doctors. Stop FGM. And they see me as a foreigner.

Kassia Binkowski
So you've been doing this work for more than a decade now, are people starting to listen? And when I say people, I mean when you go back to Somalia, which I know is a huge priority for you is to change the culture and the legislation there. Are you starting to have successes are people starting to listen? Are you starting to see change?

Ifrah Ahmed
Yes, I see a change. I see at least the you know, the media piece. But Somalia is a huge country, okay it's 10 million yeah? Or maybe even more. But it's the problem is that you tell them to stop and they listen, but same time they might do it. Because even if you talk to the cutters and you tell them to stop, they need some financial support to build their own businesses so they wouldn't take cutting. But they don't have that. And then they actually practice. So for me, it's we train young people, we train media, we train religious leaders, we do training with the community. We train women who are displaced and in IDB camps, we train them to understand the concept of FGM. So we do a lot of work, it helps. It is better than 2014 which was first time I landed in Mogadishu and said, "Okay, now I am here and I'm going to work." So since two, I can tell 2014 and 2015 it was different. Because when I sat on TV and talked about FGM, they say "Oh, look at her. Oh my gosh...She's talking about, she's never been ashamed, because he's talking about women genitalia, or you know, clitoris or whatever. But now, when I go on TV, I can have a man sitting next or a religious man sitting next to me, and having the same debate. But if I wanted to be that girl, I have to respect the religious leader and give him the ownership of they are our religious leaders. They are the people who move, they are the people who can tell us what is right.

Sabrina Merage Naim
It's a very, it's a very fine line that you're towing here. Because like you're saying, You're talking about an issue that has so many sensitive implications for so many people. And you need to provide a level of respect to religious leaders. And you need to come dressed in a certain way. And from a certain perspective, that you're not an outsider, you know, that you understand the implications, and also the trickle down effect of something like this that we alluded to before. But you're talking about the fact that fathers are concerned that their daughters won't have a proper dowry. You know, the cutters need to have income. The trickle down that you're talking about that makes this a much more complex issue, then what I came, frankly, into this conversation with, which was a very black and white mentality, there's right and there's wrong, and this is wrong, and that's the end. But I really appreciate that you're giving us a perspective that is much more complicated, that we need as a global community who come from countries where maybe this issue isn't as prevalent, but we know that this is an important issue that we need to acknowledge and educate ourselves about that it is not as black and white, as we would like to think, that there are so many different layers of gray, there's so much complexity. But I also want to acknowledge how incredible it is that what you're saying the difference between what you were able to accomplish in 2015 versus today, in five short years, that is huge strides! Huge strides in what otherwise has been a global practice for generations, for hundreds of years. So I just want to acknowledge that that's pretty incredible.

Ifrah Ahmed
Thank you so much. And then maybe I'm going to talk a little bit about my struggle. Because, you know, I always think about the positive, but there's also the other way of struggling. I was given safety in Ireland, and I was given a better life to live. But I decided that I wanted to go back because I want to save young girls from FGM. And I want save young girls from being cut. So all these years I have been in Somalia, a life has not been so good. Because every day you meet people in a hotel and you get to know them. And they will have been killed by bomb or shot, or anything. So the hardest part of my life it was for me knowing a lot of people who some of them have been killed in different ways. And at the same time. I feel that if I can make a difference and save young girls from practice, I will always do anything to protect the girls. But for me being in Somalia, life has not been so great in terms of the security. And that is very nearly because I risk my life. Some people don't understand. Because they say, if you're given an opportunity to live in Ireland why can you not just live there and just stay and live? It's really hard to stay. But when you have a voice, and you believe your voice can make a difference, you have to use it. You never know what you can do for others. So I don't want it to be wasted. I don't want to grow older or die while regretting I haven't done anything to help the girls.

Kassia Binkowski
What is it that you wish for the next generation of girls? I hear you and I'm so so grateful for your honesty and your willingness to share because the work that you're doing is, is incredibly risky and incredibly complicated. And you continue to show up for it. What is it that you want to come out of that? What is your wish for the next generation?

Ifrah Ahmed
My wish for next generation is that when I meet so many mothers who have thought of cutting their daughters because they have been cut, I came up with campaign seven years ago which is Dear Daughter. So I want everyone to make a pledge to their daughters and say dear daughter whatever happened to me, it will never happen to you.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Breaking Glass as a production of Evoke Media. Evoke is a nonprofit organization that exists in order to elevate the people and stories that are working to make the world a more unified and equitable place. Learn more at weareevokemedia.com