Strength, stereotypes, and gender in the military

Robert Egnell Transcript

Sabrina Merage Naim
From Evoke Media, I'm Sabrina Merage Naim, with me is Kassia Binkowski, and this is Breaking Glass, a series of conversations with women around the world who are shattering glass ceilings and challenging social norms. They are audacious, gutsy, and their stories are echoed across borders and generations in a rallying cry that is changing the narrative for women everywhere. Robert now is vice chancellor of the Swedish Defence University. Over the course of his career, he studied civil military relations, counterinsurgency operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, peace, support operations, and so much more. But what we're especially excited to explore today is his vast knowledge of women in combat and gender in the military.

Kassia Binkowski
That's right, Sabrina. In 2019, Robert co-authored and edited a book specifically comparing gender perspectives in the military all around the world. That's what we dissect together today. And I just want to acknowledge for a second the elephant in the room, Robert is not our typical guest. On Breaking Glass, we pride ourselves on having hard and intimate conversations about complex women's issues. And those are usually with women. But it's important to acknowledge that there are men doing this work too, men who are advocates, men who are showing up to help change the narrative for women. Robert is one of those guests.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Absolutely. And we challenged Robert today to answer questions about his privilege about how being a white male has enabled him access and opportunity that maybe has not been afforded to his female colleagues working in the same space. This conversation pulls back the curtain on this and so much more. And we're very excited to share his work with you. Take a listen. All right, Robert, thank you so much for joining us from Stockholm. today. We're so excited to talk about an issue, which frankly, I don't know that much about, but I think is an important issue to talk about. So thank you for joining us.

Robert Egnell
Thank you. It's great to be here.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So jumping right in today, you are the vice chancellor of the Swedish Defense University and a senior fellow with the security studies program at Georgetown University. So you're an academic you're studying, writing papers, doing research, you are publishing books on a whole slew of issues as it relates to the military and even militaries around the world. But one area that we really want to focus on is your research on women in combat and gender in the military. But first, I'd like to understand a little bit about your path into the military. Take us back to the beginning. What was your path into the military? What did it look like?

Robert Egnell
Well, back in the day, I did my conscription year as all male youth did back then, I also did a year at the officers Academy and became a reserve officer and then also did a tour while at university. I took a year's leave and I went to Kosovo in '99, with the Swedish peacekeeping battalion there. And while I'm still a reserve officer, although not a very active one, so I pursued my academic career. And I've I've been doing that since and it's just a, I guess, a happy coincidence, they've managed to merge the two worlds by becoming the Vice Chancellor for the Swedish Defense University.

Kassia Binkowski
What did you see over the course of your career that really began to shape your perspective and your interest in gender dynamics in the military? Share more about what you know about what women are facing.

Robert Egnell
When I did my conscription that was one of the very first years that women who were not pursuing an officer's career were allowed to do their military service. And they stood out and it was tough. It was completely integrated at that time, which meant gender blind, so everyone was just assumed to do the exact same things. We shared the same accommodations, the same toilets, the same showers, there were no shower curtains. And I think that was tough for everyone. It's not that easy to be a 19 year old young man in that context, either. It might sound like a dream but if you're not prepared for it, it's actually quite tough. And it's so it's it's been quite a cultural journey for the Swedish armed forces as well. Integrating women again today, introducing different ways of, of teaching young kids For example, the language you use, thinking about being more inclusive, and it's been a long journey, but the Swedish armed forces have come quite a long way.

Sabrina Merage Naim
And was that an intentional approach at the time? You say that they were gender blind, no separate accommodations, no shower curtains. Was that was that the belief that that would be the right path? Or was it that they were not prepared to accommodate women at the time?

Robert Egnell
I think it was a little bit of both. But the idea, I think, was that in, if war happens, there's no way to accommodate those types of different needs. So this is a way to prepare them for, for reality. Obviously, there are ways to accommodate even in the worst of circumstances. But that was the idea back then at least, how has that evolved? What was done gender blind has become much more gender sensitive, and gender aware I think. It was in the early 2000s, that a really interesting project started, it was after UN Security Council Resolution 1325 on women peace and security. The integration of these perspectives really took hold in Swedish Armed Forces, and a project started working on this, how to integrate gender approaches in the armed forces, how to become more inclusive, to recruit more women. And that was a tough journey, I think, but it's in quite successful.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So let's talk about that for a second, the integration, because for so many cultures, the soldier has forever been had been a sort of epitome of masculinity, the archetype, if you will, how has that influenced the introduction and integration of women?

Robert Egnell
Well I think you're absolutely right. And if you ask him, almost anyone, what what does the typical soldier look like, or the typical marine or what have you, most people get that image of a well built young male, with a crew haircut and a broad jaw. And that starting point is really quite problematic for women joining the armed forces, because most of them do not look like that. And most of the cultural signifiers of the regiment, or the language used, they are coded in, in the language in a way that is construed for for male and for masculinity. And to be part of that environment, it's tough to stand out and be different. Even though you desperately want to fit in, you're always going to stand out as a woman in the armed forces unless we achieve much, much better rates of women in the armed forces. So I think that's that's been an enormous hurdle. Some women thrive in this environment, and they join because it the environment looks this way. But those are very few. And most do need some consideration at least. Some changes to the internal culture in order to feel welcome. And for the glass ceilings not to be quite as rough.

Kassia Binkowski
So let's talk about the Swedish military for a second, which is obviously at the heart of your expertise, although you've done incredible amount of international study. We understand that today Sweden is a real leader internationally in terms of gender equity in the military. I hear you that it started with this gender blind approach. Paint a picture, if you will, for where it is at today. What does it look like? What is the breakdown, and what kind of policies and changes have gotten you there?

Robert Egnell
So Sweden is actually a really interesting case, because it's a bit of a failure at the same time. The number of women in the Swedish armed forces are still very few. Although we are now recruiting at between 15 and 20%. The officer corps is just over 5%, which is much lower than most OECD countries or Western countries. So in terms of recruitment and retention, it hasn't been that successful. The other hand, the cultural shift is where the success is. So the gender awareness, the introduction of gender coaches within the armed forces to commanders, the entire production of gender sensitive operations in Mali, Afghanistan, for example, enormous amounts of work and successes in that I would say. So that's why Sweden is leading, it has introduced the gender perspective in operations and on its own organization. But that hasn't yet translated into a very successful integration of women in the armed forces.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So you're talking about the pendulum swinging really, from gender blind to gender sensitive, which is a whole different frame of mind. Right? And I want to understand a little bit more, I want to kind of push this subject a little bit more on what does gender equity really look like from the inside? In terms of recruiting, in terms of regulation in terms of managing - what is the goal?

Robert Egnell
Well, it's it's two things really, one is the gender awareness in terms of the internal organization, how it sets up the the career opportunities, the culture of the organization, as you say, the recruitment and the training of soldiers and officers. And, and introducing gender awareness, and all of those aspects. And but that's only part of it, because obviously, the key task of the Armed Forces isn't to be gender equal, it is to defend the nation to conduct Peace Operations abroad. And that key task also requires agenda sensitive approaches. So it's, it's about the internal organization, but it's also that the external way of doing things. So when we conduct operations, how do we do that with gender awareness? How do we do social patrolling? How do we conduct our fighting in a way that is more gender equal? And that's also a really interesting way to work.

Kassia Binkowski
Give us some examples. I mean, for our audience who isn't fluent in this space and might have very little exposure to it, for Sabrina and myself. I know, I can speak for both of us. What does that look like? What does a gender aware or even a gender sensitive mission or operation look like? How does that change how you all function?

Robert Egnell
So I guess you could say it starts with the analysis of the situation. What does the local context look like? Who are the actors involved? What is the politics of the local context? What are the security challenges for the local population, and speaking to women as well as men while doing that analysis. And then from that analysis, that should be different from a gender blind approach or a traditional conflict analysis it's about planning operations and conducting them as well. And if you plan them, I usually ask traditional military officers. "Okay, so say that you are about to go on a night raid in Afghanistan? What kind of information do you need?" They usually then say that "I need to know if there's women or children there." And I say "Okay, so what why is that?" "Well, in that case, I need a few women along in my unit, because I can't body search the women in that village, I cannot search through the female parts of the accommodation. And that might be really dangerous with that might might make it vulnerable. And if we need extra intelligence, I probably need a female interpreter as well. So I can speak with the women in the village to get intelligence data." So it's just an awareness that it's important, and that sometimes, women in the unit is also important, not only because they have special competences, but rather because they are of a different sex that opens doors in certain parts of the world.

Kassia Binkowski
Sure. So what you're talking about is the integration or engagement of women has a solution for some of the military, the Armed Forces goals for some of its peacekeeping operations. In what ways has it been a challenge, in what ways has integrating and committing to integrating women been a problem for the armed forces?

Robert Egnell
Well, I think mostly it's about understanding the importance of this factor. So you can imagine there are any number of factors that determine the outcome of a battle engagement or a peace operation and to get officers who are are of a very traditional mind to accept this as a key competence and a key aspect to think about when doing your conflict analysis and planning operations. That is quite a hurdle in relationship to everything else.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Yeah, so that was going to be my question. How is it received by leaders in the military when you come to them and say, you need more gender equity in an environment right now that is so masculine and patriarchal? And militaries around the world have similar issues, some are doing it better than others. But when someone like you, who's doing the research, who's writing the papers, is going and saying, "You do need this, it's important." How is that received?

Robert Egnell
Well, I think I'm usually fairly well, if I use the right approaches.

Kassia Binkowski
What's that approach?

Robert Egnell
Well, first of all, using very, sort of down to earth tactical examples, example that the the night raid in Afghanistan. They understand that language. You can't go in speaking about the need to to deconstruct the masculine, you know, patriarchal world order, that's not the language they respond to. But if you speak about, "Okay, I have a way for you to conduct operations more effectively. And that's introducing a gender approach to analysis and conduct of operations. And I think you should hire gender coaches, or a gender advisor for your staff, in order to do those types of analysis for you and to help your staff in their approaches when they work on this." Quite often, they're at least willing to listen, and they're willing to try. And my interviews with commanders in the field show that those who have had gender advisors attached to their units, find it really useful. Afterwards, they can't always explain why but they do find it a useful perspective in in their analysis and planning operations.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So I'd like to talk for a second about privilege, because you are a man, you have a military background. And I want to understand how your position has influenced your ability to affect change on this issue in the field.

Robert Egnell
Well it's been absolutely crucial in the military context, in my mind. I have a military background. I have all kinds of advantages. I can speak their language, so to speak. And that is incredibly helpful. Even though I might be saying the exact same things as a woman would or a gender advisor. And that's just the nature of things in the military. Obviously, what I found really interesting is that it's not just in the military, but also in other circles, and sometimes in women's rights circles. I do become sort of the token man, who says all the right things, and I am invited to speak at conferences and at levels, I would say, far beyond my level of research and competence. Just because they find it interesting that a man with my military background and interest would would be a champion of women's rights and gender perspectives. So that privilege is not just in the military, but rather everywhere, it seems. And it's a it's a tough one to tackle when you realize that "Okay, I'm saying the exact same thing as feminists have been saying for decades. And suddenly I get all this attention." And to bring oneself down to earth constantly is quite important and to look oneself in the mirror and say, okay, it's not because I'm brilliant, and because I'm a better speaker than anyone else. It's about privilege, and acknowledging that. But then the question is, you know, "Should I should I not do it? Should I give up my space for someone else who is just as worthy, but doesn't have the same privileges that I do?" And that's really tricky. And so usually I, I emphasize my awareness of my privileges, and I use it to do good.

Sabrina Merage Naim
To your advantage, right?

Robert Egnell
Especially for the cause

Sabrina Merage Naim
The cause, right? That’s the point.

Robert Egnell
It's not too much about me. I think that's when I'm in danger of losing sight of my privilege, so to speak.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Right? But you're in a unique position that and I do think the self awareness and bringing yourself down to earth is a really important element here, but you're in a unique position that you are able to be more effective because of who you are. And that the end goal is still for the benefit of an important issue that impacts the military, impacts women, impacts culture, society, you know, etc, etc. So that if you take advantage of the position that you're in, in order to further the cause, it's still it feels a little bit like a push pull in terms of, you know, is it right or not? But if the purpose of your of you doing it is for the benefit of the cause then why not. Right?

Robert Egnell
Yeah, that's how I ration myself anyway.

Kassia Binkowski
How have women who are working on this issue related to you related to your work? I mean, surely you're not the only one tackling this. So what has been that dynamic?

Robert Egnell
Usually, I'd say overwhelmingly positive. But I think especially in the beginning, there were some, some critique as well, and some worries that I, you know, "Who's this new guy? Is he for real? Or is this just about attention? Or it's the politically correct thing to say these days, so he's found his niche that he's successful in." For example, when the current social democratic government was elected, the female foreign minister, when she was announced, immediately said that she would pursue feminist foreign policy. And there was, especially in the security circles, a little laughter about this, some were upset and said, this is absolutely outrageous. We don't need feminism in our foreign policy when Russia is at our doorstep. These are serious issues. And others were mostly laughing. So I wrote an op-ed saying why it was a brilliant idea and why that would bring peace and stability for Sweden. And then, and I received so much positive feedback on that one. So the only negative response was a counter argument from from really renowned feminists in Sweden, who said that I was hijacking feminism for my own cause. And that really hurt to be honest. But at the same time, I did not engage in that debate. I wrote to them directly, and we worked things out by me showing them that I was for real. And I knew my stuff as well.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Right. I think it's important to acknowledge at this point that we recently had a conversation with someone who is working towards gender equity in the corporate world. And one of the concerns from a female perspective is that men are saviors, men have the Savior complex. But - on the contrary - what we talked about was that we need male advocates, we cannot do this without our counterparts fighting the good fight alongside us. So it's not a question of pushing men out of feminism. It is bringing them into feminism, right? And so I want to just encourage that point, because it's something that we we have also heard a little bit of, and we need to dispel right away away that there is no place for men and feminism. There is an essential place for men and feminism.

Robert Egnell
Yeah, absolutely. And I think the the key part of that is that this is not just about, for example, women leaning in. This is just as much about men and masculinity and seeing how this can benefit society and both sexes. And that's why men have to be engaged, and we have to have conversations with women on these issues. But we also have have to have conversations among men, about, you know, what are we doing? What kind of masculine roles are we transmitting to our children? How do we raise our young boys? These are really important conversations that need to be met. For sure. I don't think gender equality is going to be possible unless men are on board on that journey. And you know, I've been accused of, of being all about show, all about being politically correct and what have you. And I usually don't ask, "Do you really, really think that being a male feminist is a useful thing in security studies?" It really isn't. So this is not about populism for me. I mean, I'm taking my lot of battles here as well.

Kassia Binkowski
I'm sure and I mean, it reminds me of a conversation we've, we had with a conservationist in Kenya, who talked a lot about labels and the labels that have been thrown at her over the course of her career being the only one at the table, and how, you know, needing to check yourself - is that a label that I'm going to own or not? Or is it just something that's being flung at me? So you know, we certainly appreciate the work that you're doing. I want to pivot this back from, from your perspective back into the Swedish military and what it's doing today. The gender neutral conscription was in 2018, is that right?

Robert Egnell
That's right.

Kassia Binkowski
What did that look like from the inside? How was it received?

Robert Egnell
I think it was an absolutely obvious policy decision. Conscription was removed a number of years earlier, and we moved towards an all volunteer force, a professional force. And we just couldn't recruit the levels necessary for that. So the decision to reawaken so to speak conscription was a fairly obvious one. And when we did that, it would have been considered incredibly old fashioned not to have it be gender neutral.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Are men still the standard against which women are measured? And is that shifting? If so,

Robert Egnell
Yes, men are still the standard, and to a ridiculous level war fighting is considered physical sport. So even though I ask numerous commanders, you know, "What determines the outcome of the battlefield? And when you fail is it because people can't carry their rucksacks for enough miles or with enough ammunition?" They usually say "No, it's about decision making at all levels." So I ask them "What, if you increase the average intelligence of soldiers by 10%, and at the same time lowering by 10%, physically?" And that question doesn't even compute. It doesn't work for them, because the identity of the officer on the soldier is so much attached to physical strength, it's so much part of their identity that they kind of cannot even begin to think about lowering standards, or accepting that a different standard would be acceptable. It's just, it's about who's the strongest one. And if you can do 30%, instead of 20, you're better than the one that can be 20.

Kassia Binkowski
So where do you go from there? I mean, if that door is shut on the conversation, if they can't wrap their head around that gap from physical strength to intelligence and decision making, what's the next argument?

Robert Egnell
Well, the problem is it obviously translates into really problematic recruitment standards and tests. US Marine Corps, their infantry officer, school, they have an obstacle course that is almost impossible to pass on. If you're under 170 centimeters - I don't know what that would be in feet - but if you're slightly shorter, and doesn't quite have the same upper body and muscular strength, it's impossible. And the question then is, is that obstacle course really the best measurement of an infantry officer in real battle? Obviously, it's not. So these traditions really limit the amount of women who are successful in testing and in getting through these tough academies.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So you're talking about something that you've written about before, which is that assumptions that we make around women in the military can be dangerous, and really limiting. And one of those assumptions I think is, is physical strength, versus decision making capabilities. And in a culture so focused on strength, I'd like to take a minute to talk about power dynamics, because there are some assumptions that we make that have proven to be true in certain cases, which is, in some cases, women are actually threatened physically, on military bases. Recently, there was some media coverage around the handling of sexual assault and harassment claims at US army base Fort Hood that ended in the murder of specialist Vanessa Guillen, and the firing of 14 commanders and senior soldiers and nurses. It was made very clear after review that there is a massive culture of sexual misconduct that was just going unnoticed - not unnoticed but unregulated. How vulnerable are women in a male dominated environment from a physical safety standpoint?

Robert Egnell
So the military prides itself in being chivalrous. So it shouldn't be dangerous at all right? If that were true that men are these knights in shining armor, protecting the weak, which is sort of the self image of the army corps, it shouldn't be dangerous at all. But that's all the statistics show is that it is incredibly dangerous in some environments. And I would just like to emphasize that this is not everywhere. It's not in in all armed forces. So these are armed forces with really problematic, hyper masculine cultures, I would say, and where they also, I mean, these are cultures where you train people to kill on a battlefield. So obviously, there's a level of violence and it's necessary for them to be effective in that task. But the question then, is what comes with it, if you ramp up this hyper masculine version of violence, does that also produce views of women that are really unhealthy, and of sexuality and your right as a man, and your needs as a man, for example. And I think in certain military cultures, they do really play together these things and the use of even in training, they create killers, they also use hyper masculinity, sexuality as a way of bonding as men. And I think in those cultures, you do create a real danger of also creating, well, at least a strong potential for sexual assaults. And that would be a dangerous environment for women. But there's there's no necessity in that type of culture. So that those that those would be dysfunctional military cultures, I would say.

Kassia Binkowski
My assumption would be that the cultures where that hyper masculinity is present and is an intentional part of military training that those same cultures aren't necessarily recruiting, engaging, integrating women. Is that the case? Or are there places where this is actually kind of going head to head?

Robert Egnell
No. Those cultures have obviously been quite reluctant to accept that the ban on women in combat has been lifted, for example, and that they should recruit more women, and more diversity or what have you. Obviously, as they have been forced to recruit. Now sometimes these these cultures do clash. And that's where the danger comes in. But you also hear it as an argument sometimes against integrating women in military organizations, that you would expose them to violence. And that is, to me a horrible argument, because you accept that your organization is essentially a rapist organization, and you're not going to do anything about it. And when you accept that, well, well, you should really acknowledge or accept responsibility for producing that culture.

Kassia Binkowski
Robert, how much is the role of women in a country's military a reflection of the gender dynamics in civil society at large in that country? Are there instances where one doesn't reflect the other? Or is there kind of a fluidity between these things?

Robert Egnell
So this is a tricky one. In terms of recruiting women, very little, I'd say. So those armed organizations in the world who have been best at recruiting women are usually guerrilla organizations, in countries with extremely patriarchal systems.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Can you give some examples?

Robert Egnell
Colombia, for example, has a lot of female fighters. And also a different example would be the United States who has actually a fair share of women in their own forces, but are not very high on the gender equality scale. And then you have Sweden at the other end of the spectrum, with really good societal gender equality, in relative terms at least, but that have traditionally failed to recruit women.

Kassia Binkowski
So at the turn of the century, it's my understanding that only six out of 200 nations had women making up more than 5% of their militaries - is that vaguely correct?

Robert Egnell
I'm sure you're right.

Kassia Binkowski
It's shockingly low. And recently, you wrote and published Women and Gender perspectives in the military, which was an enormous international comparison. And I can only imagine the hours of research that went into that. What did you find most surprising? What was most shocking to you, as somebody who spent their career studying and working in this space? What was still surprising when you undertook that very international study?

Robert Egnell
So I went into that study thinking that I would find some level of correlation between forces that have recruited women to a higher level and armed forces that were more gender sensitive, who had also introduced those types of perspectives in the organizations. That if you add women from the start that will also change the organization. So I haven't seen that, which is somewhat disappointing. Now, it might be a matter of time, or numbers that we haven't reached the threshold high enough for women to have an impact on the organizational culture. On the other side, there are countries who have done a lot culturally, who have not been successful in recruiting, for example, Sweden. So doing one doesn't necessarily lead to the other. And that to me was really interesting.

Sabrina Merage Naim
What about in a country like Israel that has had conscription for both men and women mandatory army service for a long time?

Robert Egnell
Yeah. So that's an interesting one. And since the numbers are incredibly high, you would think that that's got to be the gold standard since universal conscription, right? But at the same time, it is a very traditional society. And they have not opened up to women in combat units. So they are, they are in certain units, certain types of jobs, which means they still have a long way to go in terms of gender equality within the armed forces, even though they have a lot of women in the organization.

Sabrina Merage Naim
So I want to ask you about women in combat, because this is an area of research that you've done a lot of work on, and the stereotype is that nobody wants to see their mothers and sisters and daughters torn apart by war. Right? That's kind of the traditional stereotype that comes to mind. And my question to you is, what has your research really brought to bear as it relates to women in combat? And why does it matter?

Robert Egnell
Part of this, I think, is about assumptions about cultures. Well, that you know, society cannot stand having their daughters die in combat, or you, you cannot fight alongside a woman without needing to save her and protect her if you're a man. So the interviews I've done is that you very quickly, sort of become gender blind when it comes to combat. You're just battle buddies when you live and you're exposed to danger together all the time, 25-7. Gender suddenly seems to disappear, and you become friends or just professional buddies within the armed forces. So the idea that the Savior syndrome is there all the time, that seems to be just a rumor that we can forget about. Women are performing just as well. So those who consider there are those who would say that women are not just physically weaker, but they're also mentally weaker, they cannot take stress as much. That's absolute nonsense. There's no evidence of that, perhaps the opposite. Another important aspect is the assumption that male bonding is necessary to perform well in war. And there are not that many gender integrated combat units out there. But the Danish had been fighting fiercely in Helmand Province in Afghanistan, and they had a lot of women in the combat unit. And the officers there, their story is the opposite. These units seem to mature and that that has been useful, then they're behaving better. The cohesion while rocky perhaps during training, once they are there and become a professional cohesive group. It's incredibly resilient. Why both units are those all masculine units, where they are socially homogenous, so people from the same part of Sweden, for example, that look the same and speak the same. They are not as resilient as one might think.

Kassia Binkowski
So, Robert, along the lines of what you're saying, why does it matter? Why do you keep pushing for, why are you working towards gender equity? Why does it matter towards the big picture military goals of peacekeeping and conflict management that women are engaged, that we keep driving towards gender equity and armed forces internationally?

Robert Egnell
There's two reasons. And those are the two reasons I I try and sell these approaches as well. One is gender equality. This is about women's rights being human rights, human rights being women's rights, as Hillary Clinton famously said, in Beijing in '95. And that should really be enough. Women should have the same opportunity if they want to in the armed forces as men do. But the other part of of my argument is that I am absolutely convinced that more gender-equal, gender-aware organizations will be more effective when protecting the nation and when performing the duties abroad, to promote peace and stability in other parts of the world.

Sabrina Merage Naim
Breaking Glass as a production of Evoke Media. Evoke is a nonprofit organization that exists in order to elevate the people and stories that are working to make the world a more unified and equitable place. Learn more at weareevokemedia.com